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Rear Steer options

milling_drum

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Aug 19, 2008
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725
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out west lately
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asphalt mill operator (ret)
Not sure if anyone knows how important knowing where the rear end of the machine is when cutting but, it is. Quite often the calibration slips out and its necessary to either run without using the automatic. Automatic steer mode coordinates the rear tracks with the front, according to how the operator has it set. Settings range from crab, coordinate, off or manual, or locked dead straight.

Over the years I've seen the usual train wrecks of people that know it all but will run all day using the auto while it isn't setup to keep the machine straight and then yell and scream about changing end ring teeth and/or wonder why certain rows are wearing the way they are. We won't focus on them and we can only HOPE that isn't you. I see this EVERY year in a different place and wonder how these lovely infidels last so long and why they can get me fired when I say something about it.

Wirtgen automatic steering stays fairly well set up, even in the manual position the rear tracks will stay where you put them. Roadtec like to run away in the manual position but hold dead on when set up correctly to coordinate. CAT system is without a doubt the one I prefer because of the modes of steer selection, the controls aren't all that great but I trust the rear steer to react the way I want it too when coming into a crab or a radius. Nothing beats the older Wirtgen steering controls, you could run it with one hand in almost every situation. CMI/Terex have a good system simuliar to CAT. The old CMI wasn't too bad as well if you had some help from time to time...right...

I always had a problem getting the auto steer lined up to set it up. Some people use tape measures and measure off the edge of cut to the front toe of the track, measuring both ends of the rear track. Some use a straight edge off the edge of the drum housing. I've always been concerned that the front tracks need to be set as straight as possible first and THEN try to align the rear track straight. Thats if you have the time and people who aren't like whats mentioned above which seem to dominate the milling world. I've had the best luck getting the rear steer auto calibrated while cutting IN the cut over a space of about 150 feet. Run on manual till your fairly sure your straight, get the front as straight as possible, run a few more feet on the line you trust and then if the rear end is lined up right, cut the auto on and calibrate it right there.

Thoughts opinions and comments are of course appreciated but since this is the first time this topic has been brought up after all these wonderful years....well...never mind:pointhead
 

milling_drum

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Messages
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out west lately
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asphalt mill operator (ret)
47 views 0 replies...

Before we get to far ahead last year an operation running 3 PR800-7 models all from different production years, had every machines rear steer automatic fixed DEAD nuts accurate. The oldest one was a 1994 model, it spent many years in Japan. I know back in 1994 I had seen maybe two mills then where the groundman could steer a track from the ground, it wasn't widely accepted by any means. Wirtgen brought that trick to the forefront. The 94 CMI from Japan also had another little neat homemade trick. I rear leg assembly underneath, above the sleeve had a piece of straight steel welded to it pointing directly rear frame of the machine. On the frame, another tiny weld piece of steel where the other piece of steel met it and could clear it. It was a rear track dead straight mark on the ground for the groundman who could steer the mill from the ground to return the rear track to dead straight. And it couldn't be wrong like the rear steer auto can be when the calibration slips out. So running the ground with that mill, a CMI, you know exact depth and angle based on the two indicators you have on that rear assembly.

I won't mention that mill was modified like that in JAPAN and that the other two did not have that feature. They never went to Japan. And I cannot share details of the custom built grade control system they used, which worked extremely well on city cut applications. I definetly won't mention that the 2002 (the one I was running was a 2004 model) had a stripped oil plug in it and it leaked massive amounts of oil all over the mouldboard door. Maybe the time they came in the shop for a day and we could hear an air leak under the operators console and 3 weeks later having to put a new clutch in...Or the time they sent me to run that mill for a day, and the engine oil was barely on the dipstick. $ gallons brought it too the low mark. A V-12 right? hmm

The Japanese foreman/groundman/operator have tremendous respect for each other and keep in frequent contact. That isn't at all the case with the rest of them, on that you can be sure of.

Rear steer issues tear up mouldboard edges. Any opinions on cut backs on side streets? Do you start on the curb or the high mark of the street? its ok, I'll be happy to answer this myself sooner or later>
 

milling_drum

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2008
Messages
725
Location
out west lately
Occupation
asphalt mill operator (ret)
No Problem Robin, notice the lack of comments from people that know a little bit about? hmmm

Today I noticed the mill I've been around for the past few days which was having the rear steer auto lining up when its on problem, was just about right, its taken days because the only one that watches for this item is the operator. This is how these types of operations run. The alignment was off forcing the rear of the mill over to the right a little. Pushing the mouldboard into the edge of the cut and ultimately wearing it out prematurely. I did help the operator as best I could which isn't easy while trying to maintain loading trucks in a production environment, but between two people that know and have the right idea it isn't hard to sort out using whatever method necessary. The real problem, finding people are decent enough to work with to solve problems with and not maintain theres only ONE way too do this and its this way or the highway.

In the end, (which is where this thread will end, few if any comments and heres why) rear steer issues affect wear on MANY parts of the mill, those items prematurely wearing cause other items to fail prematurely and it costs more to stay running. Nowadays, nobody really cares because they just throw money at it till it goes away or the have the machines on a lease program that sees it go back in 5 years. Its just that simple. If you go way back to one of the first posts I made here at these forums I pointed out that mill was going down the road cutting in a manner that could cause multiple problems because it wasn't being run right. I was told thats ok because they are blah blah blah, bet if the owners of that mill saw that and realized what was up, they would tell them they might like to consider trying it another way to save them some expenses on repairs. Never know, maybe the owners write the losses off from milling taxes....hahahaha
 

jeffvega

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Jun 2, 2011
Messages
36
Location
california
What I have heard from the factory for the wirtgen machines is to use a laser on the frame of the track and line it up with something on the front track while the machine is in the air. Don't know exactly how this works but it makes sense. I know when they are new they have hash marks on the steering ring on the rear leg right side showing where strait is. The 2000 model and forward have a fine adjustment in the computer to compensate for it being off a little like the cat had
 

milling_drum

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Messages
725
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out west lately
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asphalt mill operator (ret)
Thanks for the good input Jeff, Hope that Belt went on ok.

Lazer set up is nice if you get the right alignment up front. The hashmarks are the trick;)
 

jeffvega

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Jun 2, 2011
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california
I just cant see how some operators can handle a machine running with something not right about it especially if it make your job more difficult. Its simple JUST KEEP UP YOUR MACHINE AND DONT BEAT ON IT. life will be good
 

milling_drum

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out west lately
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asphalt mill operator (ret)
Uh Jeff, you might be a good person by natures order of selection but, let me be the first to tell you I can name half a dozen milling operations where if we had a conversation like this, they would fire me for bringing it up first. Then they would make sure all the content mentioned was either ridiculed or completely dismissed. The objectives we think are simple ideas used to make life easier while running, they would see as un necessary BS because they visually can't discern where its causing a problem and never have to see the bills for the repairs most of the times are done by service techs.

I went to work for an operation in Phoenix that own a number of older mills, 3 Barber Greene RX45's, 3 PR800-7's, one W2200. When I saw them on the job the first day it was kind of impressive. they had 2 pickup brooms running, a kick broom, a Pr 105 trimming, all curb and gutter work, residential. I did noticed the W2200 had an old style CMI rear track measure rod welded too it and they were running it with the rear end way too low, eating the mouldboard, front way too high. noticed the groundman working his @ss to stay at an inch an a half. I mentioned it to the guy interviewing me, he blew it off. They hire me, and blah blah blah...

The W2200 was the usual mess, lower bulkhead never getting cleaned out properly, rear track steer set to pull the rear INTO the curb, (90% of what they do is on the curb, they hire a nobody like me to run the newest mill, whats wrong with this picture?) I ran it almost all the time with the auto off and on manual. Good heavy mill like that, with the auto off the tracks stayed right where they were with very little wander, I could get on a straight curbline with it and run a mile or better without having to bother with it. People like me never get set to wirtgen school, I do not know how to calibrate them with the electronics, I've tried but never figured it out completely and its fine, I'm good on manual;)

Grab some popcorn plz....So they hire my friend Richard as well, hes been around mills a LONG time and knows his stuff. I had been telling them the mouldboards on the CMI's weren't floating anywhere close to what they should be, which leave alot of material/trails making cleanup alot more difficult AND most importantly wearing out broom cores alot faster, slowing down clean up ect ect....Aight that wasn't all. We start a side street cutback, the ground man with his fa**ity headset starts telling me to back up on the radius, first pull is going around the edge of the radius, not the high side of the street and work outwards. I show them the mess left by the mouldboard being halfway torn off by the edge of the cut and how it gets forced up because of the angle of the mill, they don't care, do it just like this.

When I left, I told them that I had forgotten more about milling then they will ever know. My friend actually finally convinced them after months they were doing it in a way that tears up equipment and they finally listened but....you can bet they didn't want to hear it from me;)

Moral of the story is Jeffs quote above except its very rare.
 

hoosier

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Oct 19, 2009
Messages
30
Location
south carolina
On the wirtgens you can align the tracks via the screen up top.
Donnie C in Florida showed me how to do it,but I have forgotten how to get into that option,..you cut the tracks all the way right and wrote down the # then cut the tracks all the way left and wrote down the #,split them and that was your dead center. I know you know who I am talking about MillingDrum.
Your 2nd question:
On rebates, usually I will cut from center and work my way to the curb/radius,depends on the layout of the road.
I hate crabbing in the cut,it just wears out holders,skis,cutting edges etc imo.
 

milling_drum

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Messages
725
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out west lately
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asphalt mill operator (ret)
Thanks, yes I do know what your talking about. The rebate thing always needs to be cut from the high side so you end up using the edge of the mouldboard to scrape the curb clean or use the teeth if you can stay the close and not ..... Chew too much pan. Up north in areas where there is no gutterpan all that needed is to sit the ski on the concrete and runaround it. Those are strange terms for you Hoosier.....you ok? I'd like to meet some of your lovely co workers one fine day sometime. To bad it pays so good out west or id still be back in the southeast with those wunnerful people....hm.
 

Gwargo

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May 14, 2012
Messages
18
Location
Canada
Rather new to milling still but love the rear steer option still getting used to it and its strange when I get back on a 1200f or 100 without it.
Question for you Millingdrum, Im running a W2000 and am having problems with the mouldboard it is almost as though the board has constant pressure forcing it down and it can almost bring the 2000 to a stop so im constantly having to raise and drop or the ground guy lockits it up a lil wich is a damn mess. I've asked the mechanics a thousand times to look at it and if there is a pressure valve for it but im shut down cause its an older machine and last on their list and told its fine.
When im grinding the machine is level the back end doesnt seem to be to low, like I said im still a noob to milling so any ideas?
 

jeffvega

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Jun 2, 2011
Messages
36
Location
california
most w2000's have a knob on the back right corner to adjust the pressure also if they just replaced the carbide cutting edges on the moldboard it will cut like a knife and always catch. one solution is welding some additional steel on the bottom of the door to increase the surface area to spread the load or run the back end down a lil so it rides on the door more evenly. I always weld some flat bar behind the wear edges when they are replaced to take up the wear in the door from the old ones, otherwise it cuts like a knife on the narrow carbide edges. Think about all that weight on a area a half inch wide. I still don't know why Wirtgen didn't put adjustable stops on it so it didnt want to dig so much. Guess thats one thing CMI had figured out.
Hope this helps
 

milling_drum

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Aug 19, 2008
Messages
725
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out west lately
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asphalt mill operator (ret)
Gwargo dude, don't feel like a knob or anything. Better to know what's up that it is getting to much down pressure then not to know at all. If Jeff's suggestion does not help, does the door raise up ok? Does it act ok otherwise? If it does then there's a problem with the adjust valve. Possibly the float control is not getting the right info from the pressure sensor or controls...
 
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