580CK Advice

Proud new owner of a 1967 580CK gas. Not much to look at but it has strong hydraulics, easy start (when it wants to) and runs out nicely (when it wants to). The "when it wants to"'s are where I could use some troubleshooting advice.

The nice fellow I bought the CK from told me that he thought generator was going bad but he just kept a charge on the battery and had no issues with operating the machine. First time out to play at home the CK started right up and ran strong for about 4 hours. Then it started to sputter, lose power, and after about 5 minutes of this died. I checked the battery - it was drained. So I charged the battery and it started right up. Worked again for a few hours and same thing - sputter, lose power, die. So then I jumped the CK with my truck. When I pulled the negative cable off the truck battery the CK died so it confrimed, at least to me, the generator was bad. Pulled the generator and had it checked - was indeed bad so I had it rebuilt. Put the generator back on and tried to start the CK. No luck. So I jumped it again with the truck since I had not charged the battery and it started up. When I pulled the negative off the truck again the CK died. Decided to check the voltage regulator. It was pretty roached out so I replaced it. For good measure since the battery was 10 years old I replaced it too.

After the rebuilt generator, new voltage regulator, and new battery the CK started right up, no GEN light, and ran great. I did not operate it for any extended period of time but started it daily for about a week with no problems. This weekend I was using the CK and after about an hour of work same thing - sputter, lose power, died.

Can any of you seasoned gents offer advice as to where to look next?

First thing I can think of is to be sure you have a good engine ground. Sounds like it may be grounding only part of the time.

Were you able to check the volts when it quit?

You need to check for a voltage draw. When volts get around 11 volts cpu gets freaky. Below 10 volts it shuts down completely. You need to isolate what is drawing the system down and fix it first.

10 ec.

I know I have a good ground to the frame. Are you also saying that I should check for a ground from the frame to the starter motor?

dannyboy950 said:

You need to check for a voltage draw. When volts get around 11 volts cpu gets freaky. Below 10 volts it shuts down completely. You need to isolate what is drawing the system down and fix it first.

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Really?......I must say you got a laugh out of me with that one.

ck voltage when running at half throttle should show 13 to 14 volts to be charging

On my original reply, I was thinking of an insulated engine. If I'm not mistaken, with your CK, the engine is integral to the frame so your starter should be well grounded. You seem to have covered all the bases. As jimg suggested, you need to check charging voltage. Most of my past issues with charging, when I felt all systems were functional, I eventually found a grounding issue. You might check for a good ground on your voltage regulator.

We are assuming that it is battery due to the fact that he has issues with that before. It may not be that at all. The OP needs to perform some basic diagnosis to get to the real issue. After running for several minutes use a voltmeter at the battery to determine charge. If it is low, what is the voltage at the generator output connection (Generally at the starter). That will eliminate connections, etc.

If the battery is not low, remember this is a gas engine with points, condenser and coil. The coil and/or the condenser may be heating, breaking down with run time. My brother in law's Super M gave him fits, would run great for an hour or two depending on the outside temperature and how fast the engine was run, then quit. It was a coil that replaced sometime earlier and did not have a ballast resister to lower the voltage... Would get hot and open...

Really need to get a volt meter and check what is happening when the unit quits. Until then everyone is guessing and throwing ideas that may or may not be pertinent to the issue.

HTH
Dave

Finally had a chance to get back to the CK yesterday. I had not touched it since my last post. Voltage was 12.53 at battery. Turned key to "on" position and voltage was 12.38 at battery. Turned key over - started right up. Moved throttle to 1/2 and voltage was 13.45 at the battery. Let in run in neutral for well over an hour with no problems and reading 13.45 at the battery.

So I decided to move a load of stone from my stockpile to the barn to clean up a little mud. After I pulled the stone from the stockpile with the loader and headed to the barn the problem presented itself again. Sputter, lose power... When I would slip the clutch back in neutral the engine would pick up and run. Engage drive with the load in the loader and sputter, lose power. I nursed the CK to the barn this way, dumped the load of stone and checked the voltage at the battery. Was reading 13.45.

As I am thinking about this problem it seems that by coincidence or not the problem presents itself when operating the loader under load?

I was a little confounded at this point so I parked and shut her down. For shucks and giggles I decided to start her up again and check the voltage. When I hit the key I noticed a small arc at the positive battery terminal and the systems was dead again...????

RJS

Sounds to me like you should start with the battery terninal ends and work from there. Intermittent connections can wreak havok on voltage regulators. Any intermittent connection in the charging circuit will cause voltage spikes that the regulator must react to.

I do not know what regulator you are using but I have found the solid state regulators that Case was supplying less than reliable. 13.4 V is ok although a couple tenths to low for my taste but not your problem.

If you are sure it is a electrical problem then do not overlook the condenser. Also make sure the coil is correct for the application, if someone has replaced the coil with a coil with 1.5 - 2 ohms primary resistance then an appropriate resistor will have to be installed in series with the ignition switch wire. Otherwise the coil should show 3 0hms primary resistance. Mel

rjsmithffb said:

I was a little confounded at this point so I parked and shut her down. For shucks and giggles I decided to start her up again and check the voltage. When I hit the key I noticed a small arc at the positive battery terminal and the systems was dead again...????

RJS

Click to expand...

SOunds like your issue right there. Get those connections nice and clean, and tight and I bet your good to go.

melben,

Put new positive terminal on battery cable. Seem sto have solved the problem of a dead system after shutdown. Still having the issue with stalling out when in gear or under load. Runs just fine in neutral.

Checked the primary resistance on the coil today. 1.4 ohms. Think I need to change this out. Can anyone give me a part number for the proper coil?

rjs

Not necessarily, I believe that there is a resistor in the wire from the ignition switch if the system is as designed. Look near the coil for a two terminal device, if there as I suspect, if you measure it's resistance and add the coils 1.5 Ohms you should have a total of near 4 ohms. Make sure the wires are hooked up properly so the current is going through the resistor then to the coil. Do not overlook the posssibility of a bad condenser, even new sometimes they can be bad. Did you look at the possibility of a carb or fuel flow problem or a lean main fuel setting on the carb ? Maybe turning the jet out a bit will give you a clue, many times pulling the choke control out a bit will richen the fuel mix enough to keep the engine running, pointing to a lean fuel setting. Mel

melben,

I looked for a resistor but just could not find one. the wire at the coil negative terminal comes from a post on the side of the distributor and the positive comes from a cable conduit that runs under the gas tank and under the dash assembly. I suppose there could be a resistor under there but not as far as I could tell.

I will look at the distributor and carb this afternoon.

Although the wiring on this piece appears to have been cut and spliced over the years and lights and gauges are not operational I think I am almost satisfied that the charging and starting electrical is working properly. I am thinking I should turn so attention to the fuel system.

This fuel system has an inline filter that I can see. It is one of the filters inside the clear vessel so you can see the fuel. At startup the vessel is about 1/2 full. It drops to about 1/4 immediately after start up. I notice that at about 3/4 throttle the vessel would slowly draw down from 1/4 full to near empty. When near empty sputter, chug, stall. Immediately after the engine shuts down the vessel fill back to about 1/2 full. It looks like the fuel is filling the vessel after shutdown from the carb side of the filter, not the gas tank side. Not sure exactly what that might indicate if I am seeing it right, but after shutdown I hit the key and it starts right up.

Any suggestions?

rjs

I restored my 69 580 CK last year and the coil is a 3 ohm resistance with no external resistor. I used a NAPA (Echlin) 905. May make a difference.

I would make sure your sediment bowl and screen filter are good and eliminate the in line as the gravity (non fuel pump) flow works best without one and really isn't needed if you are attentive to the bowl and start with a clean tank. You at least can determine if it the problem simply by removing it. I can't say for sure on your 67, but I think it is not designed with any more than a sediment bowl and screen filter. Easy to try. Good Luck.

If there is no resistor in line from the Ign switch you must add one or get a coil with a near 4 ohm reading on the two screw posts. 1.5 will quickly overheat the coil and burn points. If you read 12V at the coil + post with the points closed with that coil you have no inline resistor. I checked the Ag side with Case and they show an inline resistor starting with the 570 Ag tractor which is in the same era as yours, maybe a bit earlier, uses the same distributor, etc. Either fix is OK but maybe a new coil would be better due to possible damage to your present one from overheating from improper application. Mel

rasman,

First off that is a nice resto but I don't see any mud on her

How big of a job is it to pull the fuel tank? I was considering pulling it and making sure I am starting clean. I have been told there might be a screen in the tank but have not been able to confirm this.

Looks like a trip to NAPA for the coil and some fuel line is in store for me today.

Oh it has never been that clean since it went back to clearin stumps and workin hard again. It helps me on a little piece of huntin ground in Michigan so it gets a little excercise. Not much point in havin one unless you get some good fresh air seat time in with a good cigar! I took mine all apart so it was exposed but the tank itself is easy... the studs and nuts (4) simple bolt down. The issue is clearing the sheetmetal out of the way and workin around the loader but you can do it. I think you could also do it in place if you are just gonna drain it and replace the bowl screen and fuel line. The whole bowl can come off and with a little time you can work around the cramped space. Once you pull that filter out and check that coil setup I bet you are good to go.

Now keep in mind that MEL REALLY knows his stuff so I would not discount that there may be a resistor somewhere near that switch or elsewhere... That metal channel under the tank just is a sleeve for the wires though and it would not be there OEM. It may also have been cut out or cobbled up etc. I remembered that my 69 had been converted to an alternator by a prior owner so you never know.... no matter what you do though, both of those fixes will be good for you!