What would be your pick and why??

OK I am about to upgrade my skid and have narrowed it down to three machines TR270 Case, PT70 and the JD323D. Both the case and JD are new unproven machines and the ASV under carriage makes me nervous. So I have chosen these 3 because I want to stay in the compact chassis for my domestic earthworks. However I run a rotary cutter deck for around 250hrs a year in steep terrain so I want hydraulic power and also awesome breakout and smooth responsive iso controls. I build mx tracks and do alot of track maintainence also so bucket control needs to be spot on. Currently I run a New Holland C175 which has been a great efficient reliable machine but I need more power particlarly when mowing. So Which would you pick and why?? Have tested the new Bobcats but wasnt impressed plus the dealer is a tool and refuse to deal with him again. I was keen on a T320 steel track machine but have heard some poor feedback about them. Hopefully there is some wisdom you guys can share!!!

Cheers John

John,
I cannot offer any info on the Case units but we have just purchased a JD328D skid steer and I can tell you it is a nice unit to operate. Has great vision, ergonomics, is responsive and a really good cab. The a/c is the most efficient i have ever experienced on an earthmoving machine. I think this would be welcome in your summer heat. A good feature of the JD is that you can lock the boom from inside the cab - this means if you are on a heavily regulated OHS site you do not require a second operator to lock the boom up for service, cleaning etc.
I had the same experience with the Bobcat sales guy as you seem to have. Plus the new 'M' series is the noisiest skid steer I have ever tested - have great controls though.
We have had a subcontractor with a positrack helping us on a mine exploration site - his undercarrage maintenance bill is horrendous. The machine does a great job but you couldn't afford to operate it unless you added $35/hr for the undercarrage if you are working in rough conditions. He cut out a brand new set of tracks in 180hrs on our site which has a lot of rock. Then there are the rollers and idlers.........
Regards
Firetrack

hey john i have a jd 333d and i to build mx tracks and i maintain mine allso and i love mine havnt had issues w/ mine yet just little codes like fuel filters and stuff but its great sofar i just need 2 or 3 more attachments like 6way dozer blade and a tiller thats all i need for my track but its on youtube check it out type in sosebee complex and it should come up but the jd great so far cant complane

purchase who ever stocks the most parts and has the best service,

I would get a demo on the machines you want to run. I think that will answer the question for you. My new TR320 finally is in the same zip code as the one I live in. However I wont be able to give a lot of feedback until Spring.

Reference the parts price and availability comment from the poster above; that makes no sense. The Deere parts will be no cheaper and no easier to find than your other options. ASV has a good sized presence in Australia and certainly CASE has a world wide presence.

The ASV will be more comfortable to run both in ride quality and how quiet it is. It will not be as forgiving in tough conditions. I would first decide between the CTL and ASV drive concepts. If decide on the CTL then pick between the CASE and Deere. If you decide that the ASV is what you want your choice is simple.

John,
Get on to Hitachi and have a test in the JD. Case may have a world wide presence but that doesn't mean they have a good record for parts in australia - they don't!!
My JD has an air ride seat, is a very quite cab(no trouble listening to the am/fm stereo) and is very easy to get in and out of. I have the EH controls, tilting pickup hitch, reversing fan(auto), level lift, 4in1 bucket, 90" power angle dozer blade, spreader bar and pallet forks. The whole footwell can be removed for cleaning,a/c filoteres are easy to get at for cleaning, only two easily accessible bolts to remove to tilt the cab, all side engine guards are easily removeable. Mate, I haven't seen another skid steer that has the accessibility for service as the JD - I haven't inspected the case yet but I can tell you the ASV doesn't come close.
Firetrack

Spoke to my buddy at John Deere and they just started selling their CTL down in Australia this last year. He said he'd be very cautious on what kind of support you'll get from Hitachi. He said the direct reports he's been getting back here in the states is that it's been dubious as proven by their very poor market share in skid steers through the Hitachi network. This holds true for their backhoes as well. He did say Hitachi has done a respectful job on the big side like articulated trucks, but that's all according to him. He said to ask the Hitachi dealer what their current market share is on Skid steers and that should tell you enough of what you need to know. He's getting it for me this week.

John,
I'm not sure if Digdeeps buddy is on top of things in Australia. Hitachi has a good reputation as far as support in Australia. Second only to Cat. JD has over 60% of the total grader market(would be better if they had something to compete with the Cat 16 and 24 size machines in the mines). JD has a fair(and growing) slice of the Backhoe market with the 315J(very nice machine) and are making good inroads with the new 300series skid and CTL(as evidenced by availability - just lost lost(to Cat) a sale of 3 x 319 to one custopmer locally as they couldn't supply). They have only started to release the CTL's into our local market in the last 2 months and the skid steer in the last 4 months and then only selected models as they can get supply from JD.
I'm not sure who the distributor for Case is in your state but in Qld it is Macdonald Murphy. While I don't have any Case gear I talk to Case excavator owners and most are not happy with the level of support.
Firetrack

firetrack said:

John,
I'm not sure if Digdeeps buddy is on top of things in Australia. Hitachi has a good reputation as far as support in Australia. Second only to Cat. JD has over 60% of the total grader market(would be better if they had something to compete with the Cat 16 and 24 size machines in the mines). JD has a fair(and growing) slice of the Backhoe market with the 315J(very nice machine) and are making good inroads with the new 300series skid and CTL(as evidenced by availability - just lost lost(to Cat) a sale of 3 x 319 to one custopmer locally as they couldn't supply). They have only started to release the CTL's into our local market in the last 2 months and the skid steer in the last 4 months and then only selected models as they can get supply from JD.
I'm not sure who the distributor for Case is in your state but in Qld it is Macdonald Murphy. While I don't have any Case gear I talk to Case excavator owners and most are not happy with the level of support.
Firetrack

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Firetrack..I understand your position and I wasn't trying to be negative, but I think you'll find out that my information is usually backed up by some form of data- I have been wrong, but I hate it so I try not to make blanket statements or generalizations.

According to my contact at Deere it seems that Australia is a far different market than the US and most people discount it. However, he said today that he is quite accurate on his assessment of Deere’s position in the skid steer and CTL market through the Hitachi network. He did agree with you in saying that Hitachi does well with the larger equipment and is trying hard with the backhoe as they have done 37 machines so far in 2011 (9.4% market share) compared to 29 machines all of last year (7.7%).

He has been with Deere for 25+ years and is regularly involved with the “Yanks” that make trips down there so he feels more than on top of things down there. He still maintains that Hitachi, to use his term, “doesn’t have a Buckley’s chance” to do well with Deere’s compact equipment because they focus on trucks, graders and large excavators along with having a marginal commitment to parts in his opinion based on such a small population of machines. He said that this is pretty much the same for all the other global sales regions that Hitachi distributes small product for Deere in and Deere seems to have accepted this. I have no clue what a “Buckley” is????? Please educate us Americans:usa

I called his this morning to double check on his comments and this is some information that he shared with me this afternoon when he called back. He said that Hitachi’s Deere market share since 2001 has averaged 1.6%. The Deere D series skid steer and CTL have actually been available down there for longer than stated. Hitachi actually sold the first D series skid steer in Australia in June of 2010 and the first D series CTL in April of 2011 so they’ve been available in Australia for longer than the last 2-4 months (almost 18 months for skid steers and almost 9 months for CTLs).

He did say that Hitachi had a skid steer market share of just over 2% this year which was up from that 10 year 1.6% average and they are averaging one CTL sale per month nationally. The CTL market is over 530 units for the year as of the report he got through November.

I am currently leaning toward the Case machine as it is $5k cheaper at $72 k with a 4in 1 bucket plus it has more torque higher flow rates and far greater(7150lbs) breakout and (6140lbs)boom lift figures compared to the deere or Terex The Case dealer is also the Terex Dealer and he cant believe that I'm not keen on the suspension under carriage because of a past bad reputation but I'm yet to hear anyone say its the best allrounder and just as cheap to maintain so I will remain nervous. Plus the TR270 is radial lift therefore less pivot points to wear and create slop plus radials tend to dig alot harder. The dealer mechanic has also hinted that as all 3 case models run a common engine pumps drive motors etc he felt there would be no reason that the TR270 could not be uprated to the output of its big brothers which I think would make it the Best digger going imagine 80-90hp and 250 ftlbs in a 60 hp chassis any way I still would like some more opinions just to make sure I've considered everything before I spring a wad of cash.


Cheers John

therealjohnboy said:

I am currently leaning toward the Case machine as it is $5k cheaper at $72 k with a 4in 1 bucket plus it has more torque higher flow rates and far greater(7150lbs) breakout and (6140lbs)boom lift figures compared to the deere or Terex The Case dealer is also the Terex Dealer and he cant believe that I'm not keen on the suspension under carriage because of a past bad reputation but I'm yet to hear anyone say its the best allrounder and just as cheap to maintain so I will remain nervous. Plus the TR270 is radial lift therefore less pivot points to wear and create slop plus radials tend to dig alot harder. The dealer mechanic has also hinted that as all 3 case models run a common engine pumps drive motors etc he felt there would be no reason that the TR270 could not be uprated to the output of its big brothers which I think would make it the Best digger going imagine 80-90hp and 250 ftlbs in a 60 hp chassis any way I still would like some more opinions just to make sure I've considered everything before I spring a wad of cash.


Cheers John

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It sounds like you have two birds with one stone to throw. Admittedly I'm biased because I own an ASV (now Terex), but I was also a Bobcat salesman for quite some time. Based on my personal experiences, the ASV machine has been everything I've expected and better. Based on my own costs and those of many others I personally know running them, the horrible cost to run one has never materialized and has been grossly overexagerated. I can't really blame the other OEMs since they really can't sell against the speed, ground clearance, narrow width, balance, traction, etc. And in your case I even think the PT70 comes standard with high flow hydraulics that are load sensing.

I guess I would ask your dealer straight-up what machine he would recommend since he sells and supports both brands. You couldn't get a straighter answer. Good luck with whatever machine you choose.

therealjohnboy said:

I am currently leaning toward the Case machine as it is $5k cheaper at $72 k with a 4in 1 bucket plus it has more torque higher flow rates and far greater(7150lbs) breakout and (6140lbs)boom lift figures compared to the deere or Terex The Case dealer is also the Terex Dealer and he cant believe that I'm not keen on the suspension under carriage because of a past bad reputation but I'm yet to hear anyone say its the best allrounder and just as cheap to maintain so I will remain nervous. Plus the TR270 is radial lift therefore less pivot points to wear and create slop plus radials tend to dig alot harder. The dealer mechanic has also hinted that as all 3 case models run a common engine pumps drive motors etc he felt there would be no reason that the TR270 could not be uprated to the output of its big brothers which I think would make it the Best digger going imagine 80-90hp and 250 ftlbs in a 60 hp chassis any way I still would like some more opinions just to make sure I've considered everything before I spring a wad of cash.


Cheers John

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i believe the tr270 has the same dimensions as the bigger machines so your machine would be the same size either way

I do know that the new series runs a lot of the same components among the machines. This is in contrast to the 400 series whose machines had a lot of "one of" parts. This new series will be much easier to support. I am not sure if the TR270 could be tweaked to the specs of the 320 or 380. However I will say this. I ran the 270 just before the machines released. I was way impressed with the 270. It had great power for its size. I ordered the 320 without ever running one. Figuring that if the 270 ran that hard than the 320 must be even better. Also as you likely know you can add counterweight and get the ROC near that of the 320. I would run the 270, you might not need to do anything with it.

Digdeep,
Been away from my PC for a couple of days and arrive back to this epic edifice of yours. I agree that JD could have a better sales set up other than Hitachi but I'm not sure that anyone suffers because if it in backup. I had a hydraulic leaking hose on my 328D on an Australian manufactured 4in1 bucket delivered with the machine. Rang the sales office 340klm away and within 70mins the local hitachi service technician was on the spot and fixed it. You wouldn't even have got through to the operator with Case let alone get a techincian. We have both Cat and Hitachi technicians stationed here - but I suppose your buddy told you that. So because JD at this stage only have a small share you surmise that they don't have backup. From this then no one should buy Harley Davidson, Mercedes Benz, BMW, Volvo, Ducatti,Massey Ferguson, Dieci, Cat Ag tractors, Cat trucks, etc.
The only 'D' series skid steer that was available that we could get hold of early in the year was 318 - no CTL's as we tried to buy one. I'm sure your buddy knows more than us who are on the ground here. I wouldn't be so presumptuous as to advise you of what machine to purchase in your area other than to tell you of my experiences with my different brands(currently Cat, Deere, Hitachi, JCB and Mitsubishi) and those of fellow operators in my area.But then some folk have more knowledge than other and are just busting to pass it on.
I'm sure John will be able to work out who will give him the best backup in his area with out people from out of the area advising him on. I would only give him my opinion of what has happened in my area.
Firetrack

Firetrack-
Edifice…nice word choice:notworthy

I apologize to you if I’ve struck a nerve. I thought that this was a forum that allowed registered users to offer personal experience, opinions, market information, etc. on equipment in the construction industry…regardless of continent or being within an established radius of the person posing the questions (the internet is an amazing tool).

I figured that my posts are covered somewhere in those parameters. Especially considering that the initial question was pretty general, was posted on a US forum and did not indicate anything about wanting opinions or information only from Australian users. I merely offered information (educated opinion and hard market share facts) shared to me by someone relatively high-up at Deere, with distribution knowledge in the market of the person asking the question. I personally find posts from owners and operators from outside my area enriching; giving me insight to others perseptions, market conditions and experiences.

One thing I’ve learned over the years is that good and poor product support, along with strong sales can be particularly localized regardless of brand.

So to apply your own guidelines, I think it’s a broad oversimplification on your part not backed up by facts that while in your local Case dealer’s territory “you wouldn’t even get through to an operator”, it could be a very different case (no pun intended ) in John’s “area”. Only he knows according to the instructions you established. Maybe Case is extremely responsive in South Australia and the Deere dealer is terrible? The only facts about the dealer product support we know are that he won’t work with the Bobcat dealer.

I agree with you 100% that ultimately, John will be able to work out which machine works out best for him, and I wish him luck regardless of brand. After all, it is he who is spending his hard earned money.

Digdeep,
While I do not have any Case construction equipment I do have a Case ag tractor (as well as a JD and a Deutz) which is sold and serviced by the same dealer that markets and services the Case construction equipment in my area so I do have a little bit of experience in their performance. Nearly purchased a Case dozer a couple of years ago at an auction but rightly thought better of it and didn't bid. In my area Cat is the only way to go but even then you can get stuck for parts as I am with a sun gear and axel shaft(see my thread in another section here). Maybe in your area Deere, Case or komatsu may offer the best backup but then I wouldn't know or offer any advice.
Firetrack

Come on guys I'm not feeling the love!!! I asked on a US Forum because the volume of units from either brand would be far greater plus people love to **** and moan on public forums so they get to vent and I get honest feedback. All dealers are the same they want to sell they're brand so you never get the full story. In SA Bobcat are useless with warantee and aftersales service. CAT is awesome but I need it on site to make a living not in the shop. My NH dealer was awesome and the machine has been reliable but the new dealer is worse than the Bobcat guy. My old guy now works for Case Terex and I know he will always look after me but I still want the right machine. Hitachi in SA have a great reputation for getting it done and they are the first to admit that CTL's are a new beast to them that said the new machine seems to tick all the boxes but I made the point to the salesman. He said " they have the best access for servicing and repairs" I said" I would hope that I dont need that" he just kinda laughed and said its got 3yr 3000hrs warrantee. It drives beautifully but has 2000lb less breakout and lift that is a massive difference. also the sensitivity of the controls is not adjustable and is a little laggy. The Case is speed and sensitivity adjustable. The Cat 259B3 was also on my list as it is a real performer, the downsides being the old unsealable B series Cab and it being almost $30k dearer at $96k compared to $72k for the Case. In a side by side test it out performed both its big brothers 279C and the 297C which surprised and annoyed the Cat rep as I showed up for a play in the middle of a demo he was doing for council on the bigger machine. Anyway both the Case and the Deere are coming out to one of my difficult steep mowing and track maintainence sites early in the new year where I'll do my best to make them fail and throw a track if one passes I know my decision.

The TR270 and the CAT 279C would match up well. The 279C did not, in my opinion hold a candle to the 320 performance wise. Keep us informed of what your how the machines performed.

John,
On my 328D that has EH performance controls you can adjust the speed of the hydraulics(for boom and bucket) between Production rate(fast), Utility(medium) and precision(slow). We use Utility rate. Ours has a lag from straight forward to straight reverse. Haven't yet worked out if this is a good or bad thing. It doesn't have any lag from forward to reverse if you are turning - only if your going straight.They certainly do have great access for servicing(and I agree that I hope we don't have to use this great access for repairs) and have the added feature that you don't have to have a second operator present to lock up the boom. We are on a mine site and would not be allowed to exit the cab if the boom was raised and not blocked or locked. Hope it is a really hot day so you can tell us how the a/c's on both machines handle it. We have not had any really hot days here yet(probably only35c or 95f max so far) and it has been actually too cold in the cab if you leave it on full cold. Interested to see how it goes in your summer heat. I have a JCB backhoe and it struggles in the hot days. My other construction machines CAT, Hitachi, Mitsubishi all handle the heat OK.
I paid $100K inc for the 328D with tilting pickup hitch [ I definately like this ], EH performance controls, level lift, auto reversing fan, high flow hyd, air seat, UHF, am/fm/cd unit, full mine specs(3 x e stops, fire extinguishers, stickers everwhere etc), 4in1 bucket with replaceable cutting edge, power angle 90" dozer blade, pallet forks, spreader bar, spare 14" wheel, plus a set of 4 new 12" wheels(so i can put McLaren tracks on in the wet)
I measured our 328D with a db meter in the cab and it was around 83db which on a mine site means you don't have to wear hearing protection(anything over 85db and it is muffs or plugs up here!)
What size machine are you demoing? I don't have any fuel usage figure worth mentioning but none of the US engines traditionally have been renouned for being miserly but have been more renouned for reliability.
Firetrack

HCNTECH
Yep, what can I do for you?
Firetrack