Early JD 544 questions

Hi all,

I am in the process of tinkering with a 544 (no suffix) and have a few questions regarding this machine. Welland ser# 0767xx.

First of all, while the transmission seems to work well, it does seem quite harsh when you put it into gear or change from forward to reverse while still moving. Not all like what I am used to. You definitely want to come to a complete stop before changing direction on this machine. Is this normal or is there a shift modulator or some such that is acting up? Pressure is in the green zone on the gauge in the dash.

Does anyone have any advice regarding these old Allison transmissions? Am I correct in thinking that it's a TT2000 series trans? Any pressure test points and such would be appreciated before I acquire a service manual.

I have only run it for maybe 15 minutes so far to make sure there are no major issues before I spend more time and money on it. I picked it up with a seized (due to uncovered exhaust) engine. I am told that everything was working well but it was retired because the engine was extremely hard to start. I overhauled a newer 329 that was pulled from a combine and dropped that in instead.

No cracks to be found anywhere and all pins seem to be in good shape, including the center pivot. I have resealed the tilt cylinders and still have to do something with the swivel 90's on the lift cylinders although I don't think they are all that bad.

Sorting wiring out now... almost there...

Any and all opinions and advice welcome.

Thanks,
Marv

Marv
I have used 444s but not 544s of the age prior to "letter designations". It has been so long that I don't recall how the tranny engagement felt. What does come to mind, though, is that the newer transmissions have "damped torque converters". In essence they have been engineered to be slammed into the opposite direction. This is against my normal mode of operation as I was taught, and implimented for many years, to come to a complete stop prior to direction changes. The older transmissions were not that way so if you are accustomed to the newer loaders the older one may not feel right.

I just picked up a 644A I think about 72 vintage. Real clean loader. I just can not get used to the transmission. It will spin the tires going into a pile but does not seem to have any travel speed. I have found that you have to come to a complete stop. I guess we have come a long way in design. My old 950 cat will run circles around it. My 950G will run circles around both.

I'm pretty sure that the trans is a TT2000. I just ordered a tech manual so I don't know where or if there are pressure test points. I will let you know in a couple of days if no one chimes in.

Your 644A should travel about 7 mph in forward low range and 9 mph in reverse. Is this not the case? I pushed a bit of snow with the 544 and it seems to really move.

You must come to a complete stop or close to before shifting these old TT 2000 series units. Directional shifts at high RPM's will detroyed this transmission. There are no adjustments you can make. The TT 2000 series ran in JD 544, 544A, 544B, 544C, 544D. You can take main pressure off a port on the trans control valve. We stock complete transmission and parts for the TT 2000 series transmissions. If you have any questions on trans, you can email me at jmatthai@ustransinc.com.

jmatthai I email you, MGW I dont think it will quite do that, mabey half that going down hill. I think Im going to swap out the charge pump. John deere wants 3000.00 and I see that you can get aftermarket for about a 1000.00. Does anyone have any suggestions as to where I should get one. I ordered a tech manual off ebay and it has not showed up yet so I dont know what the trans pressure should be. MGW and I would both like to know.

sandnsnow,

I think I read that the pressure should be 165 to 195. 180 psi puts the factory gauge right in the center of the green band so this is probably correct, at least for the 544.

You said it will spin the tires going into a pile? Dry ground? If so, I cant imagine it needs a charge pump. It seems more likely to be an issue within the convertor not driving on the second turbine. We'll have to wait for an expert on these to chime in.

Here's a link to an old brochure for these transmissions. http://www.copelandintl.com/sites/default/files/TT TRT TTB 2000 Specs.pdf
You might find it interesting.

Marv

The early 544's with no suffix ran the older TT 2220-1. These units will shift a bit harder because of the older style pistons/seals and bronze frictions plates. The newer TT 2221-1 ran lip type piston seals and graphite friction plates which gave it a softer shift. Another thing to check is make to make sure the trimmer valve in transmission control valve is moving freely. The trimmer valve is used to help soften the shifts. If it is stuck you may experience hard shifts.

There are (2) different main pressure springs for these transmissions. It depends on the exact loader and transmission package. The original transmission is 544 used a blue spring.
Blue spring= 135 to 170 psi
White spring= 160 to 195

For the no travel speed issue. The TT 2221-1 transmission was not a quick mover from the beginning. If there was an issue with the converter/2nd turbine then you would have no torque, which we know you do because you can spin tires. One idea that I have is that this is not the original transmission for that loader. Case/Fiat/ Terex all had loaders that used these TT transmissions, but they all ran a different ratio transfer gear. John Deere/Ford ran .685:1, Case/Fiat/ Terex and others ran .846:1. Just an idea. We know from building these units that these transmissions cores do not always come back correct. There is no way to tell from the outside of transmission what ratio you have unless there is a transmission ID tag.

Thanks jmatthai,

Is the blue spring and lower pressure usually associated with the early style bronze plates then? Or dependent on other factors? I'm just curious and my 544 seems ok other than the somewhat harsh engagement. Regarding the trimmer spool, I've attached two images and it would be great if you could tell me which spool was which so I know what to look for. Sorry to be a pain.

On sandnsnow's 644 issue, is there a possibility that the one-way clutch on the convertor output has seized resulting in it not being able to over-run and not being able to drive on the second turbine? It would have full torque that way but would never "shift" up. Just a crazy thought; I don't know if that's even a possible failure mode for that roller clutch. I've never been into one of these boxes, only Allisons I've done are whatever Terex put in the TS-14s.

Many thanks,
Marv

The trimmer valve is #4 on the top pic. Check condition of valve and make sure it moves freely in bore. Valve should have little wear marks on it. If you see it worn on one side, then it is possible that it was hanging up in the bore. use some scotch brite to cleanup valve.

Sandsnow's 644A issue. This transmission does not utilize the one way clutch on converter output like the TS14 transmission. This transmission is equipment with a fixed stator. We know the overrunning clutch is good because there is power going into pile. If transmission is correct for application, there are a couple other things it may be. Make sure engine is running at full RPM when in high gear. Check linkage to make sure that transmission is actually shifting into hi range. You can disconnect linkage and manually pull shift lever in and out. If all that is correct, then it must be a problem in the hi range clutch. Might be a good idea to check pressure in hi range. There is a pressure port on transmission rear cover. There are a few common failures in hi range. (1) Snout of hi range piston housing is broken off and is still wedged in rear cover. On a clean break, you may still be able to shift into hi range but there would be pressure loss and clutch would be slipping. (2) hi range friction plates are worn. (3) Some debris may have gotten in between the hi range housing pilot and pilot bore in rear cover. Debris in between the housing and cover can cause damage to the aluminum rear cover. This would also cause pressure loss. It is a pain in the butt, but we have done this repair while transmission was still in machine. Hope this helps out.

Hi/Lo range selector

Simple question from never operator - been looking into loader for snow plowing - gotta stack the pile.

Anyway, wondered where the Hi/Lo range selector is on these old Deeres (544). Is this the knob under hydraulic controls (right side near floor)? If not, where is it and what is that knob?

Also, does anybody know if any of these early loaders were just single range?

Was looking at a 544 thought to be from 1974, it seemed to be awful slow, but I'm sure it was in LO and seemed to have water in fuel, so was an unhappy machine (as was the seller!).

Thanks
T

The hi/lo range is on the forward/neutral/reverse lever on the steering column. To shift into hi range lift up on the lever and move it further forward. I'm not sure about a knob low on the right side. I know the knob on the lower left side (behind your foot) is the clutch cut off switch for the brake pedal. I've never seen a knob below the hydraulic control levers?

Turntable,

Farm_boy is correct on the shifter and clutch cutout. To add to that, you have two speeds available in each of the 3 positions L, H, and R. It is the torque converter itself that automatically shifts between two output speeds depending on load. I think the knob on the right you're talking about is possibly the rear axle disconnect. It was an option on some models. Mine doesn't have it. Also, the same basic trans was used in the 544 and 544A through 544D models. Nothing with only a single range. If you shift into "L" it should do about 7 mph, basically equivalent to 2nd gear in the newer models. "H" will get you 23 mph. If the one you tried out wasn't running right then I'm sure it would seem slow.

The stuff below should shed some light on the transmission.

Later,
Marv

The following is quoted from the pdf I linked to in post #7,

"The 2000 Series Powershifls contain a twin-turbine torque converter. Essentially, this is a unit which has two turbines, one inside the other, Each turbine drives a different combining gear which drives the forward-reverse range gears. When the load is started, oil flow within the converter causes the first turbine to turn, driving a low speed combining gear which, in turn, drives the range gears. As the load is reduced, due to increased vehicle movement, the higher velocity oil flow reaches the second turbine and causes it to turn. This drives the range gears through a higher speed combining gear. (The first turbine and its combining gear freewheel when the second turbine is operating at higher speeds.) The result is automatic 2-speed performance from the torque converter. When this is combined with two speeds in the range gearing, you get 4-speed performance. Yet the operator only has two forward (and one or two reverse) shift lever positions to select".

The travel speeds are quoted from a JD 544 brochure,

"Forward:
1. Low range, first and second turbines, 0 to 2.8 mph.
2. Low range, second turbine, 2.8 to 6.8 mph.
3. High range, first and second turbines, 0 to 10.7mph.
4. High range, second turbine, 10.7 to 23.0 mph.

Reverse:
1. Low range, first and second turbines, 0 to 3.8 mph.
2. Low range, second turbine, 3.8 to 9.0 mph.

Shifting from first and second turbines to second turbine is automatic."

Thanks, Guys. Didn't mean to hi-jack your thread Marv. lol

Column shifter IS range selector, that's where I was confused - not realizing the turbines "self-shift".

I think the other knob is an optical illusion, on closer inspection it looks like the seat adjuster! LOL

My bad. WADA!! LOL

Thanks again,
T

Seat adjuster? Haha, that's funny!

Turntable, did you end up buying that machine?

Delayed response ...

Hi Marv,

No, but look at it again this weekend. Says he got engine running fine, hoped changing tranny filters would fix poor power problem. Got me excited!

He changed filters, didn't help.

Looking around, Deere says poor power, poor acceleration at low speed may be bad freewheel clutch. Yikes!

Any opinions?

Anyone have an idea what a rebuilt transmission would cost?

T

Turntable,

When you try it out again, watch the trans pressure gauge in the dash to see if you have the same pressure in low, high, reverse and neutral. If it is always low, possibly a charge pump issue. If it's just low in one position, that would indicate a problem with clutch apply piston/seals for that position.

Also, (with engine off) have someone hold the throttle to the floor and check to see if the arm on the injection pump is travelling all the way open. You might have to pull the cotter pin and remove the rod to verify where the pump-arm hits the limit spring; then hook it back up and check to if it's travelling far enough. It should be vertical in the full fuel position. The throttle pedal is bolted to the right hand forward floor board and if it's loose or has been shifted around it's very likely to be not adjusted correctly anymore. Doesn't take much to cost you several hundred rpm. Ask me how I know this I think high idle is about 2500 rpm. Just trying to rule out engine power problems.

Take note of whether low and reverse are both bad and see if it will spin it's wheels pushing into a pile (I'm assuming not). It should also overpower the brakes in low and reverse. It may very well be a bad freewheel clutch if it has no pulling power in forward or reverse, or some other converter problem. I'm sure jmatthai or another expert on these transmissions will have an idea if you can post a little more info.

Later,
Marv

Hi Marv,

Thank you for the ideas, I'll see what I can find.

Did get one quote for Allison TT2220-1 on exchange at $5250, so non trivial for sure. May just have to pass on the machine.

T

Turntable said:

Hi Marv,

Thank you for the ideas, I'll see what I can find.

Did get one quote for Allison TT2220-1 on exchange at $5250, so non trivial for sure. May just have to pass on the machine.

T

Click to expand...

Any update?? I just acquired a 544. Drove it 15 miles home and by the time we got their it barely would climb a hill in low range. The oil pressure is right at the mark at high idle, the oil temp warmed up to right where it should be. If the converter is slipping that much I would expect to see the trany fluid getting hot. It never budged beyond normal. The unit had better speed before the unit warmed up.

Ideas fellers?