observations about skid steers

JCBiron said:

k45, that's what I thought, but wasn't sure....to clarify the OTT discussion on JCB's....

The prior models (series I and II Robots) did offer a door kit which essentially was the CTL door and some panels that covered up the opening remaining at the bottom. Obviously, this kinda defeated much of the benefit of the side entry. Although the safety factor of not ever having to climb under a raised boom still remained, as did the visibility.

For the Next Gen. machines, they have eliminated this option all together. For better or worse, we cannot do OTT's.

Now, on our factory CTL's, I will say that I would disagree with the above comment that they aren't any easier to get in and out than a standard skid over the bucket. The Next Gen. models have a suicide door, so you are stepping on the low side of the track, and they have also added an actual welded step to the undercarriage frame (which seems fairly insignificant, but makes a world of difference). As such, they are quite easy to get in and out of, and still provide unmatched safety and visibility.

For the record, I FINALLY received my first Next Gen. model Wednesday night (a 260 Wheel, Cab, A/C, 2spd, Hi-flow), and I can honestly say that I am down right impressed. I haven't been able to do much with the machine since it is brand spankin' new, but I did throw and old bucket on it and do some bucket loading/lifting exercises with it in grade 8 and road mill (not sure if that is the correct term?) and it has impressive pushing and break-out forces.

I'll be updating with full results once we get them out on demos to customers, but I am very optimistic at this point.

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What is the sticker price on something like that??

well sometimes people seem to put words in my mouth.

obviously i was not talking about the old school bobcats when i was talking about the pressurized cab, and i assume everyone knows i know that. i hardly acknowledge that the non m models even exist, and am not happy the whole line has not been replaced yet; im not aware of any model ever that has been more dated, besides maybe the chevy astro van, but that was still sweet when they discontinued it. (that statement was a bit of an exaggeration just so ppl know)

people say i don't know the differences between all the models. i know the differences.

you cant run over the tire tracks with a jcb, that is what the ctl is for, unless you want to dukes a hazzard through the door. (that was a joke and not sure it would even work)

i wish skid steers were tested at the nebraska tractor test laboratory as tractors are, so that fuel efficiency and performance arguments could be proven. either way it is well documented that if you run a diesel slower you get more efficient operation. generally belts are an efficient way to transfer power. again, i dont really care about this argument because many factors come into play.

if i drove a jcb i imagine i would hate it because it does not have bobcat controls. (im aware this is a sarcastic contradiction) i dont see me making my way to the jcb dealer any time soon, times are getting busy on the farm.

i could get into specifics, but that would be a lot of extra work, dont worry the info to back up all my claims is there, but i already write a lot on my posts.

by the way, im looking into purchasing a japanese mini truck. i think it would fit in well with my exotic equipment strategy, along with my strategy of getting things done way cheaper than other people. anyone know any interesting info on the skid steer forum? obviously the subaru sambar supercharged model would be the most desirable.

perhaps i will open another can of worms. i really dont see how anyone can justify buying a new skid steer. seems to me buying 2 used ones would put more money in your pocket when it was all said and done.

it is a statement for bobcat that they are still selling a 13 year old machine like hot cakes.

the sweet and slow case vertical boom does not exist any more. otherwise you got 2 school of thoughts for your vertical boom. the underhand approach, kubota, bobcat, cat, terex, jcb believe it or not. and the overhand approach, new holland, new case, deere. unless you are breaking you boom arms in half, i really dont see why you would care which vertical boom you have in these 2 categories. i have always had a problem with the big black whatever it is on the cat sticking out past the back of the machine and up so high, seems like it would work great for demolition projects, looks like terex thought so too.

I guess ill throw fuel on the fire, bobcat would be without a doubt the last skidsteer i would buy for sure and the rest of them differ greatly the only two ive ever owned were case and cat but ive spent hundreds of in NH, deere, bobcat and ASV/terex belonging to generals that i sub for or rentals . The only similar machines i would agree to are deere/NH and some parts of CAT/ASV other than that they are worlds apart. And quit harping about your stupid pressurized cab, every bobcat i ever ran had a bent up rusty a$$ door that would barely bungy shut let alone latch and seal and it went along good with there jerky a$$ controls , noisy pumps ,drive motors ,stalling out damn engines and seesawin rocking back and forth out of balance heavy assend design . There just giving dave back a little of what he gives out nearly everyday

seen and heard of jcb's causting more for parts aswell, and that stupid brittish pipe thread, dunno if its a big deal for them anymore but it sure turned me off of the excavators.

Every manufacturer has a advantage but its like a car take one for a drive and sort through the BS yourself. I belive they would all make you money !

dave esterns said:

i really dont see how anyone can justify buying a new skid steer. seems to me buying 2 used ones would put more money in your pocket when it was all said and done.

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I couldn't agree with that more! Let somebody else take the beating of buying new. I have never bought any equipment new. Probably never will either.

You're right deeretime i just wanted to get dave all roud up . truth is they're all pretty good , none are perfect some are just farther developed than others

Deeretime said:

seen and heard of jcb's causting more for parts aswell, and that stupid brittish pipe thread, dunno if its a big deal for them anymore but it sure turned me off of the excavators.

Every manufacturer has a advantage but its like a car take one for a drive and sort through the BS yourself. I belive they would all make you money !

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These newest gen machines are no longer BSP. Most of the machine is built with US sourced parts to lower parts pricing.

hey now, generally i dont attack people when i am discussing matters. i feel like most of the time im respectful in stating my opinion. i have only gotten worked up when people who have no idea about anything bash on the new jcb skid steer when they literally dont even know it exists. at least i am pretty informed when i make statements.

actually even tho i feel like i am pretty rough with my machines, sometimes i dont know how it is even possible for some people to have their machines beat up as much as they do. my bobcat has 8000 hours on it, has been covered in manure its entire life, and besides most of the paint being gone, it is like a new one yet. i think i had to throw a couple door seals on it over the years, and had to replace the door once because i let the neighbor use it. what is wrong with demanding a pressurized cab? it is 2011, what else would you have?

i usually wear hearing protection while in the skid steer, quiets all the pumps right down. until now all skid steers have been too loud to safely run all day without hearing protection anyway.

i dont know why you would ever stall the engine, its a hydro.

i dont see how skid steer controls could be more smooth than my bobcats, i can make the drive as smooth or rough as i want. (i could see maybe if you were a beginner) ic i was cruising through the cow yard 7 miles an hour with the bucket and a cow decided to stick its nose out of a window just ahead of me. because of my sweet bobcat controls i was in full reverse instantly. i would suspect with many of the other control setups i would have sheared my cows nose right off.

actually about 15 years ago before i had such an open mind, i drove an 1845c. i drove it for 60 seconds loading liquid manure and got out before i dumped my first bucket. i never experienced anything like it. uncontrollable. i suspect i would do better these days.

is anyone entering into the case/new holland skid steer driving competitions? i would be more confident i would win if i was in my bobcat.

skid steers are a rough ride, there is no way around that, that is y i hate them.

Just giving you a hard time dave , it was meant to to be taken more funny than serious i dont really care what brand people want to own . My only two real complaints about bobcats were the foot controls and the engine stalling so easily when under an sudden load i know they've changed control options but dont know about stalling i haven't ran a bobcat since 05 it was a new like 2 hrs on it new S185 turbo that stalled horrible when you were just getting buckets of topsoil out of a pile , you really had to be quick to let off the sticks . My old 1845C was probably stalled out 5 times in the 7 years i had it that S185 stalled probably 20 times in one day and it wasnt me i had been operating since 98 a friend of mine has a 863 like a 97-98 model thats just as bad it would have to be hard on pumps and the engine especially since everyone forgets to to throttle down and restarts at full throttle.

JCBgm said:

These newest gen machines are no longer BSP. Most of the machine is built with US sourced parts to lower parts pricing.

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Engines, pumps, drive motors, loader valves, joysticks and associated components???

This reminded me, I found it alittle odd that JCB is using pilots in these new machines, but according to the JCB guy I spoke with at Con Expo they are switching to E/H next year. Maybe he was incorrect, but it would seem to be odd to have the first year of the new series to be pilots and then use E/H from there on out? JCBgm is this correct?

ah, alrite.

so i looked at the case dimensions, and they are 4 inches longer than our bobcat, so a case will not fit in the barn. and whats with new holland and case being 70/30 split now?

i see that the comparative gehl skid steer is a full foot shorter than the case/new holland, how do they do that?

jcb is going with pilots this year, and eh next year. has something to do with emissions. i assume they wanted to make sure the first machines were good, and give them some more time to do research on the eh.

i dont think there is any brand using exclusively US built Engines, pumps, drive motors, loader valves, joysticks and associated components...

i have been running bobcats for 20 years and probably have stalled it 20 times total. i feel retarded when i stall my machine.

dave esterns said:

ah, alrite.

so i looked at the case dimensions, and they are 4 inches longer than our bobcat, so a case will not fit in the barn. and whats with new holland and case being 70/30 split now?

i see that the comparative gehl skid steer is a full foot shorter than the case/new holland, how do they do that?

jcb is going with pilots this year, and eh next year. has something to do with emissions. i assume they wanted to make sure the first machines were good, and give them some more time to do research on the eh.

i dont think there is any brand using exclusively US built Engines, pumps, drive motors, loader valves, joysticks and associated components...

i have been running bobcats for 20 years and probably have stalled it 20 times total. i feel retarded when i stall my machine.

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So 4" is the difference between making it into a barn and not making it into the barn. Really 4"? Guess you better hang on to your wore out BC cause the M's seem to be longer as well.

Gehl has been running their E series for years now. I would imagine they will need to make changes to their chassis to meet the next tier requirement like BC and CNH have done.

I understand the need for E/H by JCB. I just find it unusual to develop a new machine with pilots then dump them after a year and go to E/H. You now have to support 1 years worth of pilot controlled machines and the subsequent E/H machines. It would seem to be more logical and cost effective to release the new machine with E/H to start with. I am sure JCB has their reasons, I am just curious as to what they are. Perhaps the control system is a complete carry over from the last series .

KSSS said:

So 4" is the difference between making it into a barn and not making it into the barn. Really 4"? Guess you better hang on to your wore out BC cause the M's seem to be longer as well.

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My thoughts exactly. You might be disappointed when the new M series replaces the S185.

KSSS said:

This reminded me, I found it alittle odd that JCB is using pilots in these new machines, but according to the JCB guy I spoke with at Con Expo they are switching to E/H next year. Maybe he was incorrect, but it would seem to be odd to have the first year of the new series to be pilots and then use E/H from there on out? JCBgm is this correct?

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Yes, 2012 JCB will have selectable E/H controls....I asked the same question: Why not put them on when the new models were released??? No one really gave me a straight answer. Like you said, I'm sure they had their reasons. I can say that the current Pilot controls are very responsive and very smooth....and even their old series pilots were good too, so maybe it was just a carry over part???

i assume when the jcb smaller frames come out, they will be eh right off the bat?

the jcb skid steer was previously very short, so im confident the new one will be a 60/40 split would be nice too.

i would be surprised if bobcat messed with their dimensions. i think by moving the cab forward they can gain quite a bit of room.

i think the 650 is the same length as the 873 was, and it lifts more.

who voted for these people mandating emissions requirements? honestly, look at what is going on in the rest of the world, i think we have reached the point where the laws of diminishing returns has kicked in. spend the billions in other countries where it would actually make a significant difference on the environment if you want to waste money.

every new skid steer we have purchased over the years has been 4 inches longer than the previous one. at some point it just wont fit anymore. i looked today at the space i have. the case is 2 inches narrower than a normal bobcat so maybe by the time you got turned around it might do it, one would have to get one out here. the small deere we tried a few year back didnt even come close.

if it really came down to it i guess we could keep our 185 and then get a frame size larger for the new one. it would be inefficient and a pain though.

dave esterns said:

who voted for these people mandating emissions requirements? honestly, look at what is going on in the rest of the world, i think we have reached the point where the laws of diminishing returns has kicked in. spend the billions in other countries where it would actually make a significant difference on the environment if you want to waste money.

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You would be hard pressed to find many people outside of some tree huggers, and the EPA who would disagree. The initial Tier requirements I personally think had value up to tier 2. After the low hanging fruit was picked, it has done nothing but cost everyone from the equipment and truck OEMs to the general consumer money as the costs for this has trickled down to the cost of the items on the shelves. The EPA is way too powerful.

It doesn't have anything to do with reason, or the environment. It's about control.

haha. are we allowed to discuss politics on the skid steer forum? what about donald trump running for president?