fuel suppliers

Ok here is the deal. Recently while talking with another gentlman about some fuel issues he'd been having with his skidsteer he mentioned a suspicion that the man was charging him for things like fuel additives and blended fuel for his bulk tank, but based off of what his experiences have been this year he feels that he's gotten jipped because his skidsteer and tractors are always gelled up. He switched suppliers and hasn't had any more trouble since.

Ok now for the question: has anyone else had this problem where a supplier is suspected in charging for blended fuel or additives and then not doing so?

Would appreciate your thoughts on how to go about dealing with the situation.

I'm sure you could take samples of the fuel and have it tested and then go through the headache and expense of trying to go after the supplier for damages or getting your excess charges back but in all reality maybe chalk it up to experience and remember it for later reference and find another supplier that does what he says he does and get your product from a better dealer.

Now everyones human and makes mistakes and if its a legitimate mistake then go talk to the supplier and explain what happened and maybe he'll want to keep your business and offer some compensation of some sort, as they say mistakes happen and can be corrected. I"ve had it in the past where the wrong fuel was delivered to me and once it was discovered they came and pumped out the wrong fuel and put the right in and credited me for my headaches to offset them somewhat and were upfront and honest about them and made it right. Play it out and see what happens. I guess it depends on who it was and how much business was done with this dealer and what kind of reputation they had and a lot more things but find out if they'll do anything about it first and if not I can't see where you'd gain a lot trying to collect damages over it or anything like that.

I"ve had problems in the past with things like this as well and had suspicions of wrong dealings and in the end it was either a legitimate mistake or water problems contaming the fuel and jelling filters up on cold days, it acted like unblended fuel but it was really moisture causing the grief, I"ve got a skidsteer right now doing just that, I know its not the fuel because no other machine but one is plugging filters constantly and I either need to drain and dump the tank or else just live until we get the water worked out of the system, which is easier than taking the tank off the machine and dump it out. Good luck

I don't think this was a mistake as the supplier is a small outfit with only two trucks, It has been a family owned business for years and this gentleman and our family has dealt with him for three and four generations respectively. However his primary business is supplying the dairys around us and he has stated several times that his accounts recievable have gotten way out of hand.

My main question here is just that I was wondering if others are having the same problems or as you stated Randy were they legitimate mistakes?

All in all to go after a supplier like this is going to be counterproductive I think in terms of paying lab fees and etc vs the actual "damage", but it sure isn't not going to go well for him if this is his "new business model".

By the way this problem was showing up on all this other farm's tractors, skidsteer and etc. Others have said the same thing, but as for myself I've not purchased fuel from him since it got cold (last Nov) So I've not had any problems (using a diferent supplier right now).

Randy88, your post reminded me of something wierd i had with one tractor. It was a Massey 6180. It had a see through sediment bowl, sediment filter, as well as a couple of normal fuel filters at the pump.

The weird thing was the sediment bowl would fill with water regularly. No issues on any other tractors. I drained the tank but it kept happening. I had the fuel supplier come and dip the tank, and the fuel tanks on several tractors. Didn't find water anywhere (they carry a neat paste they apply to the end of a stick, then dip the tank. It turns bright red if it touches even the slightest bit of water.)

So i had no water anywhere we checked, but you could depend on dumping the water out of the sediment bowl a couple times a year.

Never did figure out where the water was coming from, or why it was only that tractor.

If memory serves me right a lot of older tractors with the uninsulated steel gas/fuel tanks had problems with condensation. Every time you opened the cap you could in theory allow air into the tank with a slight bit of humidity which could be your source in question.
In today's age with more and more plastic/insulated tanks this isn't so much the case.

My guys came with another explanation for my grief, they claim since that skid steer is stored in a cold building there's water frozen at the bottom of the tank and after running a while the fuel gets warmed up and melts the ice which in turn gets sucked into the filters and in cold weather cools enough to gell the filters. Now this might be the case and there is a chunk of ice in the bottom of the tank but for the amount of problems we have been having it has to be a large amount of ice to cause the problem which makes me wonder how condensation could be the culprit, that is usually only a small amount per tank and we are changing the filters about 5 times per tank and have done so for about four tanks now, we just take the filters off and shake them out and let them sit for a few days upside down on the heated cement floor in my office and dry out and then switch them out again. I know its not ideal but at 30 bucks a filter and the nightmare the tank is to get out I figured we'll get it cleaned out eventually and then toss the filters and put on new again and start over, every time the filters gell the sediment bowl has ice in it and we knock that out as well and fire it up again and run it unitl the next time it acts up. From the sediment bowl alone we have to have dumped out pints worth of water thats frozen, its way more than any condensation could put in it. We don't yet know how that much water has gotten into the system but its only on one machine and all things get fuel out of one large barrel so its not fuel contamination in there, we are wondering if someone dumped water deliberatly into the machines tank somehow but thats only speculation.

I need to put it inside and let it melt the ice out and pump the tank out but right now my heated shops not done yet and up and working so we'll either get it all eventually or else spring will make it here first.

Another problem we've had is overtreating fuel, we would buy fuel that had the additive already in and to eliminate problems we would add some more and things would get worse, we were finally told that the additives we added and those already in were not compatible and after you add about so much it works the opposite and makes fuel thick again. I don't know how much truth there was to it but after we quit adding more we didn't have any more problems. The other thing we have done over the years it to run straight number one in the winter months, we got tired of the additives and blended fuel and gelled filters and all that and with the exception of this skid steer its been years since we've had major problems in the winter with machines, trucks thats a whole different story and a few years ago we went with straight 1 on road in those as well and thats solved those problems too. I've heard all the data of less power and lower fuel economy but when its -30 below and your machine sputters and quits in the middle of nowhere, fuel economy isn't the first thing that comes to my mind.

I don't know if you ever did this before but if on your skid you have an electric fuel lift pump, just take the hose off of the injector supply and turn the hose into a bucket, turn on the key and let it pump (after the fuel is warmed of course), this should get rid of any contaminated fuel and nearly drain your tank. In the process it should get rid of a lot of your problems without having to change filters as often. It won't probably get rid of all the water, but if you have that much water in your fuel you will get rid of most of it and see a deffinate improvement in a very short while.
On the note of condensation I think anyone who has restored or worked with antique tractors and equipment will agree with me when I say condensation amounts can be very deceiving and can add up rather quickly. But each case is different and these amounts can vary widely.
Wish you luck with your skid Randy

Randy88 said:

We don't yet know how that much water has gotten into the system but its only on one machine and all things get fuel out of one large barrel so its not fuel contamination in there, we are wondering if someone dumped water deliberatly into the machines tank somehow but thats only speculation.

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Hope that barrel isn't standing up outside. Any standing water on the top will get sucked in the bung threads as the barrel heats up and cools down during the day. As it cools a vacuum is created which will suck water in past the threads.

I can't say why you are having so much trouble with the one machine. Sounds like you know what you need to do.

Good luck.

I'ld be putting a lock on the fuel cap. Something seems pretty fishy to me.

Not exactly on topic, but a reginal supplier in my area has been known to pump 87 octane fuel in to the 93 octane tanks on numerous ocasions for years.

Is very noticable in high preformace custom engines.

So if I was in doubt I'd move to another supplier or do testing in an instant.

Quallity in a lot of products has gone down over the years to cut corners. And in this economy I'd say anyone in any kind of bind or profit loss with questionable caracter wouldn't hesitate to cut a corner. Look at food suppliers when fuel was really high. Instead of raising prices a lot of them skimped on the the amount of product hoping most customers wouldn't notice. Which we're headed back into the situation again it looks like.

Are you sure you are having a problem with water causing your grief, or would it be the vegetable oil that is now in the diesel? I think that in Canada we have about 8% bio in the summer and about 2% in our winter fuel. I tried to freeze a bottle of summer diesel to see if the bio part would seperate.. had it down to minus 27 C never noticed anything seperating out.
As far as reusing the filters, I do not think that would work. If the filters have a waxy buildup, it will not dry out. If it is just water sure, but I think your issue is different. I know in europe, it is a wax type of issue that plugs things up.
I have some vehicles that I know I can run summer diesel down to about minus 34 C before I start gelling, however my jetta experiences problems much sooner. I currently blend summer and winter for my old landcruiser.. so I should be running around that 5% bio.

I deliver fuel in the winters, if you buy fuel from a mom and pop operation, you are asking for trouble. Buy fuel, put the additive in yourself.

We had a supplier that was hauling things other than fuel oil when things got slow and it would always show up in the filters.

Not in my rig, But at my house I ordered #1. Got blended fuel instead. I run a monitor so #1 is critical, Was irritated but figured I could live w it until it showed up on my credit card bill as 2 seperate billings (Maybe neighbors bill too) had one for $1590 another for $1501 Same day, same outfit billed me twice . Called to see wtf and said they would get back to me.... Well they didnt till a day later when I called and wanted the manager NOW! Claimed he was out for a while, I said ok, I am coming down in person shortly! Click! Gee suddenly he called back with a phony explanation. I didnt let up. Tomorrow they are coming back to pump it out and give me the #1 I ordered to begin with. Seems like someone is always trying to screw you anymore.

Well it's been a few days since I started this thread, since then three more farmers have been telling me that they are having trouble, looks to me like a mass exodus away from that supplier, It hurts to see a long time business go do things like this but my feeling is well...... buddy ......you made your own bed.....now sleep in it. I got news for him three and four generations of being the local guy don't cut it when times are tough and he's screwing with us. He'll be his own worst enemy.