French drains

Electra_Glide · Oct 10, 2004

Looking for some help on how to bid the following job.

A friend of a friend is looking for some french drains. (As Digger has pointed out, the huricanes of September did a pretty good number up here in western PA). I went out to look at it today, and I'm a bit stumped.

The house is about 40'x50' with a two car attached garage. Full basement under the house. Driveway on one side and a swimming pool in the back. (I really need to remember to start taking the digital camera with me when I go look at jobs.) House probably sits 30'-50' off the road. The majority of his water problems seem to be in the front of the house, and they're not small. He says he burns out a sump pump about once a year, as the thing runs almost constantly.

He wants to install a french drain along the front of the house and down the one side. The driveway and the pool pretty much eliminate the other side and the back. I cautioned him that if he only put in a partial drain, he couldn't be certain that his water problems would be solved.

However, the real problem is where to take the water. The property is almost perfectly flat. Slightly evelated from the road, but otherwise flat. I'm guessing I'd have to dig about 5' to get to his footer. Doing the digging and installing the french drain is pretty straightforward, but the real question is where to terminate the drain? There's no where to daylight the pipe, and give the volume of water, I'm nervous about just digging a big dry well out in his yard.

A little voice is starting to tell me to walk away, but I normally don't give up so easy. Be interested in hearing of any other opinions.

Thanks for listening...

Joe Kantz

will_gurt · Oct 10, 2004

One place to take the water to would be the storm sewer, if possible.

digger242j · Oct 10, 2004

I'm nervous about just digging a big dry well out in his yard.

If he has that much water in the basement now, and the land is pretty flat anyway, chances are that wouldn't really be of any help. You might dig the hole just to find it filling with groundwater.

Where do the downspouts go? Does the house have rain leaders, or does the rainwater just spill onto the ground next to the house? It's surprising how much of a difference simply getting that rainwater away from the house can make sometimes.

If he's slightly above the road and you only need to dig 5' maybe there's room to daylight it near the road. Sometimes it's hard to tell just how much fall there is in ground that looks flat. 5' is a lot, but those optical illusions can surprise you sometimes. Even if you had to go dead flat with the pipe, it would still relieve the water before it found its way through the walls.

Let us know how you make out...

On edit:

Looking for some help on how to bid the following job.

Actually, you're looking for help in designing the job. When somebody tells you, "This is what I want done. How much will you charge for this?", that's bidding the job. When they say, "Here's my problem. What can you do for me?", now you're being asked to be an engineer, and there's not an engineer in the world who'd put his seal on a design that was arrived at by just looking at the property. They want to have all the information that humanly possible before they'll put their professional behinds on the line.

I used to get referrals from a home inspector for a lot of these kind of jobs, and I always said I could do what was "recommended by the inspector", but that I'm neither an engineer nor an architect. I always made it perfectly clear that my work would be properly executed, but if the problem was not solved, that was outside the scope of *my* responsibility. Remember that it should be outside the scope of your responsibility as well.

nobull1 · Oct 10, 2004

I used to get referrals from a home inspector for a lot of these kind of jobs, and I always said I could do what was "recommended by the inspector", but that I'm neither an engineer nor an architect. I always made it perfectly clear that my work would be properly executed, but if the problem was not solved, that was outside the scope of *my* responsibility. Remember that it should be outside the scope of your responsibility as well. [/B]

Well said I get this all the time. A customer calls you for a quote than they want you to engineer the project. I find this to be one of the things that makes this job interesting. But I am not a engineer and don't try to hold me accountable for what might work or not. I will tell people this is what I would do "but" I don't consider myself qualified to tell you what to do. This saves a lot of grief down the road, in most cases. I have even turned down jobs because I thought that I might cause more grief than I would fix by doing what the customer wanted done. Just because I own a excavator doesn't mean I am a engineer . A lot of customers don't seem to realize this:beatsme .

DKinWA · Oct 10, 2004

Good advice digger! I get a lot of calls from folks that want me to take a look at something and give them some ideas. On tuesday I looked at a job and before I knew it, I was designing it. I told the guy I'd think about it and call him back. This afternoon I decided to call him back and pass on the job. I can move dirt, but I'm no engineer!.

Electra_Glide,
Any chance you can talk him into having a professional look at the situation? Granted it can be expensive, but sometimes it's worth the cost.

Electra_Glide · Oct 11, 2004

Digger, nobull, and DKinWA,

You guys have all pretty much come to the same conclusion I did. I really have no idea how to design (thanks, digger) this job and come up with something that will work given the lay of the land. Like DKinWA says, I can move dirt and install pipe, but I'm not an engineer. (Actually I am an engineer, just not that kind of engineer.) I want to make sure the guy is happy when I leave, and if his basement floods after the next rain, he ain't going to be happy.

I also don't want to be the one to go out and dig up his front yard only to create a big swimming pool, and then be stuck there trying to get it sorted out. When I was out yesterday, I tried to suggest that several of the things he was interested in doing would in no way guarentee to solve his problems, and that I didn't want to come out and start tearing up his yard if it wasn't going to fix anything, but he really just wants to start digging and see what turns up. Several times during our meeting (probably lasted half-an-hour) he asked for a "ballpark estimate". Needless to say, I never gave him one.

I like the idea of talking to him about hiring an engineer to come up with a design. If he can find someone to design it, I'd be more than happy to build it, but he'll probably just move on to the next guy who's willing to start slinging dirt. That would be fine by me, since it won't be my reputation on the line.

To answer a few of diggers questions:

Most of his downspouts empty out onto the ground next to the house with splashblocks. One (on the back corner of the garage) goes undergroud and daylights out at the street, or so he says. This is one area for improvement, but I don't think that's enough to solve his entire problem.

I'm fairly certain there's not enough fall to get to the street from his footer, but to be honest, I should have taken the laser with me to check the grade. Every time I go out to look at a job, I learn a little bit more about how to do it better next time. Maybe one of these days, I'll get it right...

Thanks for the ideas guys...we'll see what happens when I call him back.

Joe Kantz

Electra_Glide · Oct 12, 2004

Well, just go off the phone with the guy.

I had pretty much come to the conclusion that there was no where on his property to daylight a pipe. I tried to offer him a few alternatives, but he really wants someone to just come in and start digging a new french drain. I tried to tell him that I didn't think a new french drain was going to do him any good if there was no where to take the water.

The friend who referred this guy to me is currently putting an addition on this guy's house, and he warned me the guy was a little "difficult". I now see what he means.

Needless to say, I took a pass...

Joe Kantz

Steve Frazier · Oct 13, 2004

I meant to respond earlier but was pressed for time. It's always best to go with your gut no matter what your customer thinks.

Dry wells are only good in well drained soils. If you've got a water problem to begin with, a dry well will do no good in saturated soils. If the water can't perc, your well will fill, the pipe will back up and you've still got your problem.

If you don't have enough pitch to daylight the pipe or hook to an existing drain, the only other alternative would be a pumping station. Then your client is at the mercy of the power company for his drainage. Around here when the weather is bad enough to cause extreme wet conditions, the power often goes out too.

triaxle · Apr 24, 2005

we don't get french benefits?

I once had a customer whose septic system was leaking to the surface because of the moisture already in the drain field area. There was no room on the tiny residential lot for additional drain field.
An E-3 suggested piping all of the water from the gutters across or around the drainfield. It worked like a charm.

Most folks don't realize how much water comes off the roof and getting the water away from the building is critical.
I sympathise with your situation because some people cannot recognise good advice from bad.

There are times when looking at other engineered plans you have bid can help. I used plans for a underground retention system that was designed for a church parking lot on two similar un engineered jobs. Make sure there is an engineering disclaimer in your contract.

Every area is different, southern building code requires an 18" rise over soil exposed on all basement and crawl space foundations so hard rain cannot enter the basement.
How was the water entering the basement?If its coming through the walls, UGL may be the cure, not grading.

French drains only work if the water is penetrating to the basement wall bottom. Control of water before it penetrates the foundation area is a very important consideration.
In many cases, if the job sounds questionable, it is likely to be. If things don't turn out right, you know who gets the blame, so bid smart, you know what you do best, look for those type jobs and you look good all of the time.

Do not let enthusiasm for finding work interfere with good judgement in accepting work.

I believe you were wise to pass given the inflexibility of the potential client.

Dualie · Mar 2, 2007

when people call me and want some ideas. I tell them Here's an idea "call an engineer". to many people are sue happy now adays. To much liability if you do something that doesn't work as intended and it causes untold damages to "something". Engineers have insurance for this. You have insurance also. But does it cover Your uneducated design ideas?

Just to many chances for something to go wrong. Let someone else take the fall for a bad design. If you build it to the drawings your giving, while not completely in the clear it does give you a substantial clean place to stand when the $*** starts hitting the fan.

Here In CA we have 2 major potential natural disasters. Floods and Earthquakes. The latter is the one that every contractor here needs to be well aware of when doing any sort of retaining wall or foundation work.

dozerdewees · Mar 23, 2007

French Drain

I ran into a simular project,and the plumber that I was doing the work for after several pumps burned out decided to install a total of three sump pits and industrial 4 inch pumps.We also put in a small underground retention basin where we pumped all of the water.It has been almost a year and as far as I know everything is fine.

KMSEXC · Dec 16, 2007

What or you trying to accomplish with the drain

Electra_Glide said:
Looking for some help on how to bid the following job.

A friend of a friend is looking for some french drains. (As Digger has pointed out, the huricanes of September did a pretty good number up here in western PA). I went out to look at it today, and I'm a bit stumped.

The house is about 40'x50' with a two car attached garage. Full basement under the house. Driveway on one side and a swimming pool in the back. (I really need to remember to start taking the digital camera with me when I go look at jobs.) House probably sits 30'-50' off the road. The majority of his water problems seem to be in the front of the house, and they're not small. He says he burns out a sump pump about once a year, as the thing runs almost constantly.

He wants to install a french drain along the front of the house and down the one side. The driveway and the pool pretty much eliminate the other side and the back. I cautioned him that if he only put in a partial drain, he couldn't be certain that his water problems would be solved.

However, the real problem is where to take the water. The property is almost perfectly flat. Slightly evelated from the road, but otherwise flat. I'm guessing I'd have to dig about 5' to get to his footer. Doing the digging and installing the french drain is pretty straightforward, but the real question is where to terminate the drain? There's no where to daylight the pipe, and give the volume of water, I'm nervous about just digging a big dry well out in his yard.

A little voice is starting to tell me to walk away, but I normally don't give up so easy. Be interested in hearing of any other opinions.

Thanks for listening...

Joe Kantz

what is he trying to accomplish with the drain

DirtHauler · Dec 16, 2007

Well, if he has excessive amounts of money and is willing to work out a Time and Materials agreement I think it would be worth doing. Just make sure he is on the same page as you are when it comes to playing the blame game later. I have watched my father do lots of interesting stuff at the owners request/design. One guy had him do some work and it did not work out to do what he wanted, BUT he said he could do the job wrong three times and still be ahead of what it would have cost him to hire an engineer. Some people just have money to spend and would rather spend it trying to invent their own ideas, they just don't have the skills to run the machines themselfs.

skata · Dec 16, 2007

i'd look first to see if the water and sewer mains were backfilled with dirt, and not sand gravel. otherwise it's possible to have a french drain effect coming from the mains.

smalltime · Dec 16, 2007

Would it be possible to remove some dirt about 15 feet out from the house, sloping that area to drain to the road, use that dirt to raise the grade around the house, & then pipe the downspout water into the new drainage ditch? I have installed a couple of french drains just a foot or 2 below the surface to pick up any water running across the top of the ground. This may give you enough elevation difference to get the water to the street. I leave the gravel exposed. If looks is a problem, use lava rocks or brick chips to cover the gravel. Regardless of the way it is done, I would pipe ALL downspout water away from the house, but not in the french drain. Run a seperate pipe for the downspout water.

GaryKelley · Dec 26, 2007

there is one more option

Install a used (non metallic) petro tank underground (10,000 gal) plumb the downspouts and french drain into that, install a submersible pump in the tank, and use that water for irrigation during the dry season. depending on the amount of runoff, it may take more than 1 tank, but you can bury them 20 deep, have enough soil on the top for landscaping etc. and a 20' lift with a pump is more or less a reasonable trade off.
Just another idea for you to consider

KSSS · Dec 26, 2007

I have had luck on some basements that leak by excavating around the house about 1 foot below the footing, retar the concrete and replace the material excavated with washed rock and top last foot with topsoil. The washed rock does not create the hydrostatic pressure against the concrete that clay or topsoil does. Depending on how bad the water problem is it is a relatively cheap alternative.

Bellboy · Jul 28, 2008

What does 'taking french leave' mean? Not working. So, they either work or they are designed badly and F-L-O-P.
At a new developement site near me, they made shortcuts on the septic tank system, and instead of putting the french drain underground, they lead the run off out of the embankment, and so when some guys went to salvage some wattle, their truck got stuck in that mess. YUK!

French drains

Electra_Glide

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will_gurt

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digger242j

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nobull1

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DKinWA

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Electra_Glide

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Electra_Glide

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Steve Frazier

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triaxle

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Dualie

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dozerdewees

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KMSEXC

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DirtHauler

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skata

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smalltime

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GaryKelley

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KSSS

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Bellboy

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