Burnout
Senior Member
Thanks for the update chief. I always wondered why everyone called it Deeretachi.
rofessor
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Komatsu/Deere/Cat 40-50 ton hoes
- Thread starter Burnout
- Start date
Thanks for the update chief. I always wondered why everyone called it Deeretachi.
rofessor
zxa
Well-Known Member
its all matter of personel choice.....but personally i don"t see why the brand "cat or deere" would be so "superior" to the other brand?? especialy today!! some will like deere and will hate hitachi....when in fact hitachi is just the orange version of deere!! cat is in fact just another japanese compagny...anybody remember when they bought mitsubishi?? they have taken the technology from them after!! i"ve saw some volvo and doosan (former daewoo) at 15,000 hours and still running....
you get for what you paid=******** personaly for me today!! its just a old expression from the 80 when the japanese had just improving the equipement...
you get for what you paid=******** personaly for me today!! its just a old expression from the 80 when the japanese had just improving the equipement...
245dlc
Senior Member
Actually Cat's excavators are a joint venture with Shin Mitsubishi, not that I'm sticking up for Cat machines but it's better to have the facts. I should also add that a major contributing factor can also be the old saying "made on a Monday morning" or "Friday afternoon". A company I use to work had bought two John Deere 850 dozers one worked good most of the time the other had non-stop electronic and I think hydraulic problems and was promptly returned.
Burnout
Senior Member
Why is Cat/Deere/Hitachi superior to other brands? Experience of the manufacturer building it, product support, parts support, dealer network and refinement of their product. Cat and Deere have been at it for awhile. While other companies have also been buildings hoe's Cat has been there a bit longer. I'm sure there are Volvo, Doosan, Shinsei..... and many other brands of hoe running at 15 000hrs.
Deere and Hitachi are the same? Look em over a bit closer. While many of the models match up quite nicely, many of the Deere hoe's still have Deere engines under the hood instead of Isuzu's.
Deere and Hitachi are the same? Look em over a bit closer. While many of the models match up quite nicely, many of the Deere hoe's still have Deere engines under the hood instead of Isuzu's.
smitten
Member
Cat launched their first hydraulic excavator 1972. Poclain 1951. Liebherr 1954. Mitsubishi 1960. O&K 1961. Åkerman 1962. JCB 1965. Landsverk 1968. Komatsu 1968.... and so on
The two Swedish companies, Åkerman and Landsverk, that later became Volvo, started a lot earlier building cable-type excavators.
I will stop here. I thought one could have a grownup discussion here, about good and bad things with different brands, but it all ends up as in many other threads. It have to be made in America, otherwise it's crap.
I will just leave a short comment to the thread starter, Komatsu PC450LC-8 compared to Cat 345D L. Stick and bucket force, and a cabin with only 71 dBA noise level (Cat 76 dBA) makes Komatsu the winner on the paper, for me. One can't just look at bucket size, unless you aren't only digging cotton......
Personally, I would go for Liebherr 954, more swing torque, more drawbar pull and more stick and bucket force, but that's me. Thank you, and goodnight!!
DeanW
Member
Nothing wrong with a Liebherr, sept getting parts for them, at least around here. And the trade in value...
Like burnout said there is more differences between deere and hitachi then meets the eyes. And hitachi DOES NOT build deere hoes. Its a JOINT venture. Some of the first hoes deere and hitachi started making back in the 80's and 90's like the E series where more hitachi due to the agreement being so new. Now a days its a whole different animal. And for all those that don't give deere credit on hoes they need to look around a lttle bit. If you take away all the machines that deere has sold, how well would hitachi be doing. Hitachi sure doesn't have much dealership support if you take deere out of the question. How many stand alone hitachi dealerships to you see?? Now many. And if hitachi is at the same dealership as a rival guess where they call to get parts. Its more then likely they go through a deere ship some where!!
Also I bet my bottom dollar that if hitachi was having problems or was making crappy machines that deere wouldn't be to happy. Deere says we want a top notch machine and nothing less. If that doesn't happen something will change so that they can
Smitten, I will agree. I like liebherr machines but theres a big difference between machines and the companines that stand behind them here and over there. Jcb,volvo, daewoo, kobelco just to name a few are all made mostly in the southeast U.S. So they are not uncommon. But what is common and some are different then others is dealers/dealer support and parts. Are they decent machines? Yes, but when ever you travel any where you can always tell in that particular area which sells the most. Deere,Cat, Komatsu and Case just seem to do whats right in north american markets. That and they have a full product line. The only thing going for hyundi,daewoo,volvo and terex is price. Thats one of the reason you see a 15-2000 hour machine going for rock bottom dollar too. I can go on and on about the pros and cons of each, but thats why you see more of these top four machines then these other makes. And why we tend to lean way more toward these.
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Deeretime
Senior Member
Agreed! every company has one product that they have perfected and what they do realy well with. like samsung, they build cheap disposable electronics just like many other japanese company's that have their hands in everything, and there is a market for that stuff. So why wouldnt they build their industrial products to be disposable like their electronics, they look the same but the components are cheaper and dont last as long.
Cat and deere know 1 thing heavy Iron, I have my grandfathers 1950? ht4 traxcavator and still works as good as it did in its day, aswell finning still sells replacement parts for that machine, it was the most expencive machine at the time but how many japanese people still use a crawler loader their grandfather bought .
245dlc
Senior Member
ummm..... you do know that John Deere excavators short of the engine are Japanese designed?
Apparently you didn't read my last post. If you want to go that far then whats not designed over there?? I don't think you give your fellow north americans any credit...
245dlc
Senior Member
Sorry my friend but if Burnout starts a thread about any kind of machine it's just going to turn into a rant why he thinks John Deere is better than any other manufacturer. lol It is very difficult on this forum at times to have a mature discussion about likes and dislikes of specific makes and models of different machines. I also find it quite frustrating to read some people's threads with they're very poor spelling and grammar, I know mine isn't the best but at least you won't get a headache trying to decipher it. However I will give people from different countries a lot of credit for they're ability to read and write and speak english. And as for Deereman maybe you should list these big differences between a John Deere excavator and a Hitachi excavator, because I know the differences other than paint, decals, and engine are not very big.
Burnout
Senior Member
Ok... time for the Burnt-one to jump back into this....SPLASH. Wow look at that water go. Maybe I should have got the diet coke today...bahahahahahaha
First off, I will start with Bert's comment about me telling you why Deere machines are better than the rest. Yes I do like JD iron, I do find their line to be very competitive with other manufacturers, especially when it comes to excavators. You can also say the same for their tractor backhoes, wheel loaders, smaller trim dozers and ADT's. They also have their weaker products, track loaders, the 2 larger dozers in their line and I am sure there are others. No company can build the best of everything. I am not a true yellow Caterpillar man either. I do prefer their track loaders to any other brand, as well as their large dozers, and obviously scrapers.
As for your other statement about being Japanese Designed... yeah? So? As was stated above, what isn't these days? If it is going to make the product work better and perform to its fullest abilities... go for it. What are the difference between a Hitachi and a John Deere? You and I have had this conversation before have we not? The Deere most of the time will have a yellow engine under the hood, may have some very different configurations available, different specs and will almost always perform a little harder than its orange brother. For instance, I have run a 350D Deere beside a ZX350D and the Deere was noticeably faster and had some extra grunt. The Deere was a short stick model and had a thumb. The hitachi.. was a LOT better on fuel, I can admit it. I was burning almost the entire 600L a day, he was burning in the neighborhood of 450 per 12hr shift.
We can have a grown up discussion here, its what we are having at least until I throw my bottle of milk at the laptop and cal you a poopy head. As Bert stated above I do prefer the JD iron and yes I am going to believe in my head that it is superior, but that is my thought. I originally asked for YOUR thoughts. What is everyones personal experience with the different brands of hoes? There are guys that will never admit to liking anything but a Cat hoe thats fine that is what they believe to be true. I have my reasons for not liking Komatsu, I feel they are justified for the reasons that I have stated above.
On paper a machine can be superior and that is well and good. I have slowly learned over the years to put down my CPH and look at how things react in the real world. I have also learned that your Kobelco SK485 may very well blow the doors off our 450D LC, what happens when it breaks down? I know I can run to the dealership and they can search me up some parts. I might wait a couple days, but what happens when you own a brand of machine without dealer support and your waiting 4-5 weeks for something simple?
I hope this discussion does continue, I welcome it. I personally have made sure to check this when I get near my laptop to read everyones thoughts. Whether they be close minded, open minded or just no minded they are interesting to read.
And now for my obligatory... John Deere makes the best iron ever on the face of the universe statement. Sorry..... it's in my contract..lol
dynahoescott
Well-Known Member
I told all you guys before, I will take a certified rebuilt 200 series cat brand hoe any day of the week. (I`ll just have to bring a radio and deal with the heat, no problem):usa
gimme a 12v71 detroit re-powered 235c and i would be in heaven.:tong
sultan
Senior Member
I agree whole-heartedly with your comment.
My Take:
Deere vs. Hitachi:
It's a joint venture. Yes, most of the non-engine related machinery in Deere and Hitachi excavators is designed in Japan, and the majority of the engineers are Japanese, and can be considered to be 'Hitachi' people. So what? Most excavators are designed there. The 200-350 sized excavators sold here are built in the US by American people... call them 'John Deere' people. If you can argue that John Deere's are just rebadged yellow Hitachis, you can also argue that Hitachis sold here are just rebadged orange american-built John Deeres. Then you'll start arguing many hydraulic parts come from Japan... nothing is all from one country these days.
I can also confirm from my experience that I find that John Deere excavators with Deere engines always seem to have a little more grunt when digging compared to Hitachis with Isuzu engines. This is probably because John Deere engines are usually higher displacement, higher torque engines. For a while, John Deere excavators also had more HP than the Hitachi equivalents, and that made a bigger difference. For example, an EX200-5 cannot keep up with my JD 200LC, because it has a smaller engine with significantly less horsepower. The ZX-3 Hitachis mostly have the same HP as the D series deeres, so the differences is much smaller, but the small differences in the torque curves still usually play out in favour of John Deere engines over Isuzus. Isuzus indeed do burn less fuel though; Hitachis are still fairly similar to Deeres and are good machines. If nothing else, you can't argue with the smooth but powerful sound of John Deere engines
Every company makes some stronger an weaker machines, I think we all agree with that here. For excavators, I find that no other machines on the market can outperform the 200s John Deere has been making for the past 13 years. Among 12 tonners though, CAT's 312s are the best, period. I very much like 345Cs, I tried one and loved its speed, power, and smoothness. And I also love CAT 245s (and 235s too); I don't have that much experience with them but the ones I have played with were surprisingly fast, powerful, and fun for their age and size.
There are a ton of other good (and not so good) machines on the market, and I won't criticize the less popular makes. Parts availability and support are critical, and they must also be considered when making purchases. If I bought a chinese SANY excavator in my area and it broke down, I'd have to wait weeks to get any parts other than filters and common consumables, or have to hunt down parts that will fit myself, with the risk of getting the wrong part. Same applies to many other makes. Some lesser known makes have decent parts availability, and they are fine for many.
dynahoescott
Well-Known Member
You are a maniac, my brother. Very smart, but a maniac, none the less! (lawn mower, chain saw or log splitter) INSIDE JOKE:usa
Deeretime
Senior Member
I know but so is cat and everyone elses machines did you know that hitachi has a Purple seat and a deere has a grey one !
Burnout
Senior Member
Did you also know the Hitachi only has a 24v outlet in the cab no 12v? Thats another up on the JD.
I will say one thing for Cat, they do not use their own special 24v radio in their machines. Which to some is not a big deal. To me it is, ever had one stop working on you? Ever seen the price on a Deere radio, or Komatsu radio? Cat uses the 12v power and a generic branded head unit which means easy replacement. Now I do know not all machines are like that, its generally a dealer installed option. But I rather like the Clarion unit in the loader I run. The aux input for the sat radio is amazing.
as for your 200 series hoe Scott..... I think thats a given. I really like new excavator smell its awesome. But the 245 holds a special place in my heart. They are big, loud, ignorant and fun.