why so few around?

Burnout said:

As I stated earlier... I am not arguing the fact that an excavator is a great piece of iron. My major malfunction with this thread is people expecting trade loaders to do things they aren't made to do.

If I may ask about your water/sewer work, or trench work... what scale are you working on? I know this is where I come off sounding like a jerk but I don't think you and I are on the same page. As for your drying dirt problems.... the site we just finished was beyond your worst nightmare. Silty material coming out of the ground at 30+ percent moisture.. optimum of 16% and we're generating dirt at an excessive rate. Lets just dry it out right? Well we had no room to spread it. By tossing in wet lifts we literally doubled the area we had to dry it if you get my drift.

Trench boxes? Yeah we don't use those much up here... why? Speed. Hard to drag a box 25ft deep thats gonna allow you to lower in pipe with a PC600. I'll load up some pics for ya... you'll see why the 973 is our ace in the hole when it comes to backfill.

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I don't do much new development work as everyone bids on that type of work. No money in it. So why do it??

I work mostly in replacement work or splitting storm/sewer pipes. Cuts down on the number of people able to do that type of work. Most people hate or can not dig/lay around all kinds of utilities. I love that kind of work. Some days its hard to see the bottom of the trench with all the different pipes, wires and other utilities.

Most jobs We have to use trench boxes as there is not room to slope the side out on. Also I don't want to dig that big of trench. Faster to just pull a trench box along. Lot less dirt to move.

I lay about every size pipe there is but 72'' to 84'' is the most common. The biggest I have layed is 120"" pipe. Seems like engineers will split the flow if the pipe requirement get much over 96" I don't own a 600 size machine, but I have a good friend that has one and I will rent/swap him when I need one. Works out good for both. As far as depth of bury it varies greatly. 20 to 25 foot would be an average. I have had to step down and still use a long reach to get to the depth I needed, but the does not happen often. A lot of the old parts of towns are built in hills and the cities do not want to install pumping stations if the don't have to. So I just trench trough the hill.

Sounds like We have silt clay soil probably like you do. It is a dream to work in compared to the sugar clay or gumbo that is around here. If that was all I had to work with I would probably do things different. But with the soils I have to work with, When either gets much above 25% they will run like water. The more you work the sugar clay the worse it gets. You have to get to the grade you want get what needs to be done and get the dirt back in fast before it really turns bad. The more you move it the worse it gets. Gumbo goes from wet to as hard as concrete just over noon. When that happens you are in trouble trying to back fill right as all you have is chunks to work with.

Jim Dandy said:

I was talking about this very issue the other day and was wondering if the track loader was kind of dieing off. My thought is this: If you said I could make a living with only three pieces of equipment (not including a dump truck) I would by a track hoe, dozer with 6 way blade and a compact track loader with attachments. Also would get a root rake for the dozer and a hydraulic thumb for the track hoe. I think that is what the track hoe crowd is getting at, it does so many things pretty well and if you had limited money to buy equipment one would stay busier with a track hoe than a loader. By the way I have a friend with a loader that I know would strongly disagree with me. But I think the market has spoken pretty loudly at least in my area and the market votes for the track hoe.

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It would all depend on what type of work I was doing.
But If I could have only three pieces of equipment I would have an Excavator, Belt tractor with pull scraper and a track loader.
I know you think it funny that I would want a track loader but they will do almost everything a dozer will along with lifting things and will help to get them selves unstuck if need be. I'm pretty good with a track loader and can finish grade just about as good with one as a dozer.Second a track loader will do many things that an excavator will do just not as fast, so if the excavator was busy or broke down you could use the track loader. Finally a good use track loader is cheap compared to other equipment.

Lee-online said:

MD, PA and NY are where the most TL are sold each year, world wide. I see them use in all kinds of job but mainly for clearing a lot to build a house, grade the lot and dig the basement then load the trucks if needed. One operator and one machine will do all the dirt work.

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I can believe that there is a lot of track loaders in Pa.
When I bought my 953C the dealer here got it from a dealer in Pa. The dealer there had many different ones equipped about every different way. This was the only one with wide pads.

The bottom line on this subject is as such, if you have the intellect to comprehend the most efficient procedures on heavy equipment utilization, you can obviously see the place a crawler loader has as a viable option on the jobsite. I believe everybody in on this discussion topic are experienced professionals and has made some excellent points. but my point is track loaders today have evolved into very powerful large skid steers and with that weight, power and maneuverability they should hold the same amount of respect from a versatility stand point as a skid steer does, not to mention if anybody ever picks up on hanging attachments off them like I said before.one contractorI know runs all his attachments from his 950e and 966f on his 973c, side dumps, old pull behind diesel compactor before it was q/c mounted, a blade off an old d7f q/c mounted (and forks too I`m sorry burnout). Now, I know my friend is very ingenious with a welder and now he welds q/c blanks on everything .but I gave him the idea 10 years ago when we were working in deep mud and we couldnt get the side dump equipped wheel loaders to the hoe buckets with gravel bedding. so I suggested putting the side dump on the 973 since it had a third valve anyway. A little mechanical ingenuity like my friend showed and these once very popular rigs will skyrocket to popularity again. All that being said, you have to apply a little knowledge, insight,capability and talent when operating a crawler loader. throw in some ingenuity and as versatile and profitable as a skid steer is, so will be a crawler loader .

I started my business with a track loader and nothing else. It was a wise choice and ten years later and i would do it again the same way.

Those track loaders are sure nice when working in soft ground. We used to have a custom manure spreader haul the crap out of our feed lot. Those machines would dig, push and smooth things out like a dream. The reason they went away from them is that it cost to much to maintain them when compared to a wheel loader. A wheel loader with skidder tires on it would do just as good of job 95% of the time. That last 5% its just to wet. The guys who did the work for us also said they were great if they got a truck stuck, they could run down the road, or across the field much faster than a tracked unit. But the cost was the main thing. Cheaper to buy and maintain.

I work in toronto for a major sewer and watermain company. The 63 and 73 are the main choice for back filling as opposed to a dozer. I can go work on a Saturday for instance by myself and can fetch my own sand to fill around the manholes. I can cut out all the bulk out of the roads. I can bulk up all the boulevards. It's a workhorse of a machine to an experienced operator.

Yair . . . it's an old thread but I'll bump it along.

Once upon a time (way back before most of the posters here would remember) excavators/ track-hoes looked the same but there was one huge and fundamental difference to modern machines . . . the final drives.

The early machines were chain drive and the traction system was used to position the machine to dig . . . that's all.

The advent of hydraulic gear drives allowed the machines to move around a job site at will and the machines became far more versatile.

I have not had a lot to do with excavators but back in around 1980 when I saw a Sumitomo blading a track just as well a small dozer I could see a revolution in earthmoving was about to happen.

Now it seems they are used for every thing to the extent that less versatile machines such as track loaders are being phased out.

On many jobsites trucks, excavators and graders are all there is.

Cheers.

Old thread but I'll chime in as well.

I've said it before and nothing has changed - If I had to choose only one machine to run an excavating company it would be a track loader. One machine to dig, load, carry, demo, clear and grade. I can clear and grubb faster with my 953 than the 321, not even a comparison. However I can't lay storm pipe with the 953, sure you can but you won't make any money at it.

Obviously, there is a need for both in my operation. Each machine is used to the best of it's efficiency. The best combo is a track hoe and a track loader - a good double punch.

I would like to have a smaller track loader for jobs that are to big for my skid loader and to small to move in the dozer . I passed up a deal couple weeks ago on a late 70's Case 450 B loader . Had a good undercarriage , and could have had it at scrap price . Owner got it stuck in the mud & threw a track on the side that was buried in the mud plus blew a hydraulic hose dumping all the oil while trying to get it out . He was also going though a divorce . Looked at it ..... thought about it ...... then walked away from it . Just didn't like the circumstances .

I did spot an old JD 450 C combo backhoe unit setting in a field the other day . I will further investigate this rig as they were pretty common to see on job sites 25 years ago . Nice setup as you had the track loader and backhoe attachment . Pretty handy outfits for a small operator . Looks like this http://www.machinerytrader.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=9409055

look out for those older hoes. most of them had a swing motor instead of pistons and were very problematic. deere even had an update to convert them to cylinders. I would love to have a 555G TC with a 4in1 and a backhoe. all you do is pull 2 pins on the top and set the bucket down and lift it up out of the saddles with the outriggers then unhook hoses and you have a standard TL again when you are worried about weight

Yeah 1466IH , I bet it has the swing motor . I have an old JD hoe that came off a track loader and it has the swing motor on it . We ended up building a winching attachment out of it for the skid loader . I still have the motor & cylinders . I never operated one , do you remember what the problem was with the motor setup ? Several contractors in my area had them , I remember dad hiring one to take out a fence row when I was a kid . It was a 550 deere . Like you say the hoe unit was easy to remove & install , much like the hoe on my skid loader . He would dig out the big trees & stumps with the hoe and then remove the hoe and push out the trees & fence line with the loader . Those guys made money with the combo units .

I love my track loader! It's by far my favorite machine to run. I started out running a 941B no the farm and learned all the things I could do with it. When I started my little business I bought a skid steer and a mini ex, then a year ago bought my 953 LGP. For what I do building and repairing ponds, clearing farm ground and fence rows, cutting building pads its a jack of all trades. Doing pond work it lets me move material farther than a hoe without stirring it more, I can build, compact and grade a dam, Running single grouser LGP pads I can run in deep mud or soft ground. Clearing I can push out trees, dig stumps and regrade the area then push it all to a brush pile 200 yards down the field without needing another support machine. I often use it as an over grown skid steer. When I bought my 953 I set out looking for a 455/555 Deere that I could pull with my single axle dump truck. I quickly found I could get a lot more machine for the same money in a 953 so now I sub out my transport for it to a buddy with a tilt deck.

I think the reason we don't see attachments mounted to them is cost. Some skid steer attachments are pricey enough but similar attachments sized for a 953/63 would scare a fella to death.

John

We took some time this afternoon to check out the JD 450 high lift combo hoe unit . It has sat for 2 years & owner will sell it . Has the 4 in 1 bucket on the loader and a 14" & 30" buckets for the hoe . Overall looks & Under carriage are good on the tractor . As 1466IH mentioned the swing unit on the hoe is the motor type . If the owner and I get together on price I will probably bring the rig home . Just wish I wasn't such a sucker for old iron

I don't know that there is really anything wrong with the motors but they aren't as strong and when they do break they are expensive to fix. There was a 555g in Texas A while back that had a ripper, 4in1, and backhoe with extendahoe that I would love to have bought but I couldn't get my finances together before it sold. The rippers of that era pinned on with the same brackets/mounts as the hoe

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Yeah 1466IH , I could see where the motor might not have the swing torque as the cylinders on the swing of the hoe unit . That 555G with the ripper ,hoe , and 4 in 1 bucket sounds like a handy rig . That's kind of what I'm looking for now ..... Something between My JD 8875 skid loader & Mid size Dozers . I'm thinking the old JD 450C with the Hoe will work great for those type of jobs .

Yes it would. I don't know why they never became popular. Something else that kind of stinks about the earlier machines is the 2 different seats. Like it was said earlier a TL with attachments would be about the most versatile machine on the job. I buy and sell to much but if I ever come along one that I decide to keep you can bet that it will have forks and auxiliary hydraulics and lots of attachments. I am not sure how a rear engine machine would be with a hoe on it but I may try that too

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I know here in kc there is a lot of loaders. not sure why ppl wouldn't want them on site.. we have 3 and wish I had more.. they can load they can grade and they can carry...

When I started in the business in the late seventies, track loaders were the main pieces of equipment my employer ran. I ended up as a concrete contractor for 25 years and I guess I never noticed that track loaders fell out of favor.

I'm back at it now on a small scale with a ctl and tractor/box blade setup. Busy and having a blast. On a job awhile back I was cutting in and shaping a 600' driveway and drainage swales while a guy on a 963 was building a large pad for the house and shop. One machine, grading out imported dirt and digging from a borrow pit...mixing, spreading and rolling it in. You can't beat that!

I started business many years ago with a backhoe and a tracker loader . have had at least one in the fleet ever since ! currently have two . with engine in the rear it has made them so much easier to operate ! planning on ordering a new one this week . they are so handy ! A good operator can do so many things well !