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how do u calculate amount of dirt on a site with no engineered plans?

planetshapers

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Joined
Oct 23, 2007
Messages
83
Location
southeast
i was wondering how most of you small contractors analyze a small site and get an estimate. a site with no enginered plan. a site that you will need to determine whether the exisiting dirt will balance...need fill...or need to be hauled off. and how much remaining area that will be useful after the work minus the cut slope and the fill slope.
for example...if you live in a mountainous region....and you see a 2 acre site with trees. relatively steep ground. basically and area you can cut the upper site leaving a steep slope and fill in the lower region. visualize a site with a 4 to 1 slope as a way to explain how steep the slope is. well...its doesnt matter cause it cant be explained. but anyways....do you get out your tape measure? or do you also get out your laser level and get a reading of how high one side is versus the other...and come up with a calculation? or pull strings from one side to the other start taking square measurements back and forth to come up with a length x width x height .......?

and...how do most of you calculate into it the summit and depression? you know..the curvature of the exisiting site? for example...a round hill?

sometimes when i look at a site..i visualize the size of a dump truck bed...and make little blocks all over the cut to get an idea and then i multiply that by 2 or more or less considering that cut' dirt is uncompacted and loamy. and of course i take into consideration how many yards that dump truck bed holds......

but the problem is also that if it has trees on it...i cant see the ground and its hard to measure! and it is so hard to tell a customer that i wont know until he spends money getting the property cleared or logged. this is especially a bigger problem if the customer needs to know an estimate befire he buys the land...or he needs to know if he can even borrow that much money from the bank to start with. on and on..... other problems arise when you cant give a price....and another guy can. or....the logger or tree guy he hires reccomends his own "buddy" to do the grading after he is done.

usually...i wanna tell the customer that ill do it by the hour. but...nowdays..no one will go for that.

i have my own ways of doing this......but i wanna learn a better way. a faster way. a more accurate way! so if we all explain techniques on this thread....it can be usefull for all of us.

thanks!
 

LowBoy

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2006
Messages
1,149
Location
Southern Vt. on the Mass./NH borders
Occupation
Owner, Iron Mountain Iron & Equipment (Transport)
planetshapers, usually there's some sort of surveying or engineering that goes on to determine quantities, soil types, cuts & fills, etc. Smaller lots can be "guesstimated" to a degree, I've done it and continue to do it myself. However, if it's a bid process and you're competing with the other tigers, there's no substitute for the information to be up front.
If it's a job that's not critical to your survival, imagining how many dumptruck bodiesfull will work to a point, but it sure hurts when you miss the mark sometimes.
I used to do a lot of modular home sites. Once a footing is poured, it's almost a no brainer to calculate how much gravel or stone is needed then, given a reference point. I've missed the mark on that even once or twice on the amount of stone to be imported/trucked in. At $12.00/ton or more nowadays around here, I was a mad hombre when I had to buy 2 extra loads (44 tons,) out of my pocket because I was too lazy to pull out my calculator in the truck and figure the square footage. Some days your eye is better than others. Most days though, the numbers don't lie...:drinkup
 

Willis Bushogin

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2007
Messages
855
Location
NC
Occupation
owner
Dirt

planetshapers, usually there's some sort of surveying or engineering that goes on to determine quantities, soil types, cuts & fills, etc. Smaller lots can be "guesstimated" to a degree, I've done it and continue to do it myself. However, if it's a bid process and you're competing with the other tigers, there's no substitute for the information to be up front.
If it's a job that's not critical to your survival, imagining how many dumptruck bodiesfull will work to a point, but it sure hurts when you miss the mark sometimes.
I used to do a lot of modular home sites. Once a footing is poured, it's almost a no brainer to calculate how much gravel or stone is needed then, given a reference point. I've missed the mark on that even once or twice on the amount of stone to be imported/trucked in. At $12.00/ton or more nowadays around here, I was a mad hombre when I had to buy 2 extra loads (44 tons,) out of my pocket because I was too lazy to pull out my calculator in the truck and figure the square footage. Some days your eye is better than others. Most days though, the numbers don't lie...:drinkup

I agree with LowBoy, its best to take the lazer out and shoot the grade. BUT, in most cases, on small jobs I go by experience (works most of the time, BUT:Banghead) Its hard to go, give a free estimate and spend extra time with the lazer. BUT, theres that risk factor, if you guess wrong.
Good Luck
 

greywynd

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Joined
Apr 25, 2005
Messages
225
Location
Peterborough, Ontario
I deal mostly with small jobs, so I can use a tape and measure it out. I do have a handheld GPS that also tracks elevations, so I've toyed with the idea of trying it to see if it will give me a rough idea of an area/volume.....you can use it to figure out area, and with some more number crunching to figure out the elevation differences, it should be possible to come up with volumes.....
 

CM1995

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Jan 21, 2007
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13,250
Location
Alabama
Occupation
Running what I brung and taking what I win
I hear ya' on the frustration of bidding small jobs without "real plans".

I do pretty much the same "dump truck load" estimating on small sites, I guess after doing it many years you kinda get a gut feeling. Now that goes with saying I have had my gut handed to me several times.:D

Here lately I agree that everyone wants a hard bid for a job. I actually prefer giving a hard bid on jobs - I usually make more on these jobs than if I would have done it by the hour.:rolleyes:

This is not a dirt job but an example none the less:

Take for instance: I bid a demo of an old house trailer (10x40) recently and won the bid. My bid was $6k to demo the trailer and haul the debris off. I own a roll-off company that will supply the 30CY cans and the landifll is 15 miles away, $19 per ton gate rate. I estimated 4 - 30CY cans at $375, average of 5 tons per can = $95 dump fee per can, leaves $280 per haul. That gives the roll-off company $1400 for hauling, that is assuming the cans weigh in at 5 tons. I should be able to complete the job in two days with a trackhoe.

Now look at the numbers if you did it by the hour:

315 size track hoe $135 per hour, 2 days, 16 hours = $2160
4 - 30CY cans @ $375=1500
Mobilization= $300 (I can move my own equipment and the job is close, 3 hours in and out total time)
Total job by the hour= $3960

Hard bid price = $6200.

I try and tell my customers that a job priced by the hour will be cheaper than a hard bid, but they just can't understand it.:beatsme When I hard bid a job, I always put the "unknowns" in, sometimes you get to keep your "unknowns" and sometimes the "unknowns" eat your lunch.:cool:
 

LowBoy

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2006
Messages
1,149
Location
Southern Vt. on the Mass./NH borders
Occupation
Owner, Iron Mountain Iron & Equipment (Transport)
I hear ya' on the frustration of bidding small jobs without "real plans".

I do pretty much the same "dump truck load" estimating on small sites, I guess after doing it many years you kinda get a gut feeling. Now that goes with saying I have had my gut handed to me several times.:D

Here lately I agree that everyone wants a hard bid for a job. I actually prefer giving a hard bid on jobs - I usually make more on these jobs than if I would have done it by the hour.:rolleyes:

This is not a dirt job but an example none the less:

Take for instance: I bid a demo of an old house trailer (10x40) recently and won the bid. My bid was $6k to demo the trailer and haul the debris off. I own a roll-off company that will supply the 30CY cans and the landifll is 15 miles away, $19 per ton gate rate. I estimated 4 - 30CY cans at $375, average of 5 tons per can = $95 dump fee per can, leaves $280 per haul. That gives the roll-off company $1400 for hauling, that is assuming the cans weigh in at 5 tons. I should be able to complete the job in two days with a trackhoe.

Now look at the numbers if you did it by the hour:

315 size track hoe $135 per hour, 2 days, 16 hours = $2160
4 - 30CY cans @ $375=1500
Mobilization= $300 (I can move my own equipment and the job is close, 3 hours in and out total time)
Total job by the hour= $3960

Hard bid price = $6200.

I try and tell my customers that a job priced by the hour will be cheaper than a hard bid, but they just can't understand it.:beatsme When I hard bid a job, I always put the "unknowns" in, sometimes you get to keep your "unknowns" and sometimes the "unknowns" eat your lunch.:cool:




This is spot on reality right here. Thanx CM1995.
 

planetshapers

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Joined
Oct 23, 2007
Messages
83
Location
southeast
thanks for the info so far.

seems like a company like topcon would come up with simple estimating devices that contractors could easily use to figure dirt.
its hard for us to learn engineering and surveying on top of knowing out business etc...

so why not a small topography device that is simple to set up and use?

a device that works like a total robotic station...but not as complicated.

gps could work..i have seen those systems. but they dont pick up well under trees when your estimating a job before it has been cleared. etc.....self explanatory.....
 

gatorguy

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Joined
Feb 8, 2010
Messages
43
Location
Georgia
Occupation
Farmer and Equipment Operator
Even if Topcon did come up with a simple estimating device that is easy to set up and use I doubt if it would be so easy to afford. :)

I just figure the price to the best of my ability and then add a little extra, in most cases i come out ahead but every once in a while you get one that you regret.
 

ontrac

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Joined
Oct 21, 2009
Messages
89
Location
Oklahoma
I use google earth and it has elevations lats and longs plus it has a ruler that measures in feet, miles ect. I like to bid the job but I tell the customer I do not bid to lose. most the time I work by the hour and I should make more because I work quicker than most. but some people need a hard number. ( they general get mad if you tell 6 hundred and you do it in 4 hours but if it takes you ten they are happy.)
 

Boophoenix

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Joined
Mar 23, 2008
Messages
86
Location
TN
thanks for the info so far.

seems like a company like topcon would come up with simple estimating devices that contractors could easily use to figure dirt.
its hard for us to learn engineering and surveying on top of knowing out business etc...

so why not a small topography device that is simple to set up and use?

a device that works like a total robotic station...but not as complicated.

gps could work..i have seen those systems. but they dont pick up well under trees when your estimating a job before it has been cleared. etc.....self explanatory.....



Topcon does have such a critter of sorts in various models. Depending on your location the options could change. The software is Topcon Pocket 3D. I'd bet trimble probably has something along the same lines as well.

Check out topconuniversity.com. Ya have to register but once registered and you can log in go to
  • TU Live Webinars
  • Construction Webinars
  • Comparing Surfaces for Volume Calculation

The cost can be an issue, but if you are located somewhere you can get on a networked base the hand held rovers can be very acurate. If the cost is an issue how about renting one from a local dealer? If you're reasonably sure you'd get the job with acurate numbers it would be well worth the cost as aposed to guestimating wrong and lossing.

I purchased a GRS-1 not long ago to tinker with. I'm still in the begining learning stages with it though. Stand alone without the pga-1 antenna or network access it can range from 6 or 7 feet to as much as 40 feet depending on sat coverage at the time and obstructions. They claim cm acuracy with the pga-1 and network correction. Waiting on the oportunity to check that out for myself.

If the network isn't available rent the older setup with a base and rover.

The recently released a new software Topcon LayoutMaster. I don't know much about it yet though. I had been around Pocket 3D a time or two with a company I work with some and it sparked my enterest. The super would go around setting grade stakes for the operators and checking what they just did. They ran some equipment with gps, but it's always a smart idea to double check with the rover. You can also do a quick check on a job you are working a bid on to see if the surveyed plans are acurate.

Check with your local Topcon and/or Trimble dealer and get a demo.
 

Kellogg Report

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Joined
Apr 30, 2010
Messages
55
Location
USA
-Came across this old thread and thought I'd include a link to Trimble's SCS900 system: SCS900

Realizing that machine control is driving the need to further empower the contractor when it comes to positioning, both Topcon and Trimble have developed systems that are specifically designed for contractors. The hardware is naturally derived from the GPS and robotic survey solutions, but the software is simplified and the use of survey terminology is limited. (For instance; Trimble deliberately uses the term 'set up' for setting up a total station instead of 'resection' as a surveyor might say).

You will start seeing much more of these systems on the job. Other companies are also releasing simple stake-out and grade checking packages.
 

DanRooks

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Aug 28, 2010
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47
Location
Sarasota. Florida
Occupation
Working with Machine owners and Managers in 85+ co
Even with a plan that shows existing contours and proposed contours, Volume measurements of earth is a rather difficult and time consuming calculation unless you have a Digitizer and Cut and Fill Earthwork Software. This setup will reduce three days of calculation down to 1-3 hours or less.

If you want to learn to calculate this manually and other fundamentals, check out Construction Estimating Institute's 2 to 5 day course on earthwork or site work courses. See www.estimating.org

Be very careful of using "Engineer Estimates" of cut or fill quantities. You need your own numbers. Many contractors will tell you about variances they have seen between the engineers estimate and their actual quantities.

The Pocket 3D looks like a neat device. But I do not think it will give cut or fill quantities, if that is what you are looking for. Read closely want Trimble says it will do:
  • Check grade & verify cut/fill anywhere and everywhere!
  • Set grade stakes
  • Volume quantities - measure and compare surfaces (This does not mean before you move it)
  • Measure and store as-builts
 
Last edited:

Kellogg Report

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Location
USA
Pocket 3D will give you cut/fill anywhere on a surface.
You can set grade stakes.
It will do volume calculations between two surfaces.
It will measure and store as-builts.
 

Kellogg Report

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USA
I think that quote was from Topcon's website, not Trimble's.
Here it is in full:

Some of the things Pocket-3D can do for you:

* Check grade & verify cut/fill anywhere and everywhere!
* Set grade stakes
* Volume quantities - measure and compare surfaces
* Measure and store as-builts
* Industry’s easiest to use interface
* Internal Bluetooth® Wireless Technology

http://www.topconpositioning.com/ap...rade-management/grade-checking/pocket-3d.html
 

DanRooks

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Aug 28, 2010
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Sarasota. Florida
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Working with Machine owners and Managers in 85+ co
I think that quote was from Topcon's website, not Trimble's.
Here it is in full:

Some of the things Pocket-3D can do for you:

* Check grade & verify cut/fill anywhere and everywhere!
* Set grade stakes
* Volume quantities - measure and compare surfaces
* Measure and store as-builts
* Industry’s easiest to use interface
* Internal Bluetooth® Wireless Technology

http://www.topconpositioning.com/ap...rade-management/grade-checking/pocket-3d.html

Kellogg Report, This is exactly what I was quoting.

I was not as clear as I wanted to be that there is a big difference between calculating cut and fill quantities BEFORE you move the dirt as opposed to calculating quantities AFTER you move it. Also do not forget the:
  • Swell factors if you have to truck it in or out
  • Compaction factors
  • Staking on a 25' grid vs a 4' grid on a computer

It is amazing how much dirt can be in a little change of elevation over a site!

We need better estimators in our business who have the knowledge and tools to correctly calculate quantities and production time.
 
Last edited:

Noose

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May 11, 2007
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121
Location
Stony Plain
Occupation
O/O '98 378 Pete tandem dump ~~ '03 S185
A standard high end GPS, has worked well for us, a little bush wacking, locate radical highs and lows, mark out basic parameters and danger areas for later reference, save to a card, sit down do some math to find volume and as said before compare per truck load!
Experience does help but doing the math confirms little details! Optical delusions can make or break a job in a hurry!
 

planetshapers

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2007
Messages
83
Location
southeast
do you mean a GPS like a topcon gps system?
or do they make one that give you elevations that is a cheap handheld?

thanks!
 

bill5362

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2007
Messages
353
Location
Indiana
Occupation
I own a excavation company and a rolloff container
I do it the same as CM, I too have roll offs, and I always do volume measurements and estimate my time, for equipments, dump truck to move material, roll offs, and mobilization. After the equipment and trucking figures and done I try and get a $1000.00 for overhead, and hand tools.
 
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