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milling_drum

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2008
Messages
725
Location
out west lately
Occupation
asphalt mill operator (ret)
its also nice to have somebody on the ground keeping cars/people and everything out of the way, trucks are ... stupid and need to be told what to do constantly. without a groundman your likely to have a long day in some cases where it isn't necessary. Lots of mills are run nowadays by just the operator up top because the controls are so easy and automated...that isnt the case with an older machine. Running one of those would mean a few trips up and down the ladder to get going.
 
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daddy

Active Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2010
Messages
39
Location
usa
I guess I'm spoiled. I have two ground men and a truck watcher.

We do mostly residential streets/township roads, and ALOT of profiling/grade correcting, where you can't just set it and forget it. Both guys are often dialing grade adjustments at the same time.

If I had a guy capable of running the machine to my satisfaction, I could probably handle both sides on the ground, but you can't be in two places at once, and I'm sure I'd mess up some.
 

Toegrinder

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
131
Location
CO
Occupation
Milling Foreman
I guess I'm spoiled. I have two ground men and a truck watcher.

We do mostly residential streets/township roads, and ALOT of profiling/grade correcting, where you can't just set it and forget it. Both guys are often dialing grade adjustments at the same time.

If I had a guy capable of running the machine to my satisfaction, I could probably handle both sides on the ground, but you can't be in two places at once, and I'm sure I'd mess up some.

That's how it should be, but alot of companies are too cheap or ignorant to provide another guy
 

spotremix

Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2010
Messages
18
Location
wirtgen
On a simple 2 or however many inch mill and fill on the highway then sure you could pull it off with one guy, not as efficeiently but you could. But try cutting an intersection along curb around a radius while loading a truck adjusting your grade, possiblly back and forth between slope, all while watching for manholes and valves...and making it look good. Plus it just comes off as unprofessional to the contractors when you show up by yourself. One person...no thanks.

i guess i still don't understand the full operation of a cold milling machine then.

i thought they just mill off the old asphalt, plain and simple. you just run it over the area you are going to resurface.

whats all this stuff about grade and slope? and why does it need to look good. it's just gonna get resurfaced. maybe i've never seen a bad job from a good job so i don't understand.

but thats why i'm here. so i an understand these things.
 

Toegrinder

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
131
Location
CO
Occupation
Milling Foreman
i guess i still don't understand the full operation of a cold milling machine then.

i thought they just mill off the old asphalt, plain and simple. you just run it over the area you are going to resurface.

whats all this stuff about grade and slope? and why does it need to look good. it's just gonna get resurfaced. maybe i've never seen a bad job from a good job so i don't understand.

but thats why i'm here. so i an understand these things.

When a house is being built, is it ok to skimp on the framing just because it is going to be covered by drywall??
 

andoman

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 23, 2009
Messages
236
Location
midwest
i guess i still don't understand the full operation of a cold milling machine then.

i thought they just mill off the old asphalt, plain and simple. you just run it over the area you are going to resurface.

whats all this stuff about grade and slope? and why does it need to look good. it's just gonna get resurfaced. maybe i've never seen a bad job from a good job so i don't understand.

but thats why i'm here. so i an understand these things.

If you don't control the cut then you'll screw up the quantity of asphalt/concrete it will take to fill the hole you just made and wreck your ride quality numbers on road jobs. If you're milling a parking lot you can also screw up the drainage.
 

Toegrinder

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
131
Location
CO
Occupation
Milling Foreman
If you don't control the cut then you'll screw up the quantity of asphalt/concrete it will take to fill the hole you just made and wreck your ride quality numbers on road jobs. If you're milling a parking lot you can also screw up the drainage.

Along with possibly shorting the contractor on their quantities
 

milling_drum

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2008
Messages
725
Location
out west lately
Occupation
asphalt mill operator (ret)
Well Mr Spotremix.....being that you have the word "Wirtgen" in your description, dont you worry about it, if you have to run a Wirtgen you dont ever need to worry about REALLY knowing how to run a milling machine.
 

spotremix

Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2010
Messages
18
Location
wirtgen
Well Mr Spotremix.....being that you have the word "Wirtgen" in your description, dont you worry about it, if you have to run a Wirtgen you dont ever need to worry about REALLY knowing how to run a milling machine.

i just put that in there because they make you fill in a location.

i don't run, own, operate or work for a construction company. i actually own a lawn maintenance business.

i am here because i have a passion for cold milling machines. i collect diecast construction equipment and cold milling machines are at the heart of collection. especially the wirtgen w2000.

all i know about them is what i've read on wirgen's website and wikipedia, plus watching them in action.

thats why i'm here. hoping somone can give me a detailed description of them and how they work and what all the 2 operators do while operating them. sort of like an on the job training session starting from once it's unloaded from the trailer to actualling milling the asphalt.

see i thought you just unload it, lower the milling drum and start moving forward. but it appears theres a lot more to it and i wanna know what all that is.

when they are using those control panels on the back sides of the machine what are they doing?

who raises and lowers the machine?

who activates the milling drum?

does the guy on the machine just take care of driving it and operating the conveyor to load the dump truck?
 

ke6gwf

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2010
Messages
81
Location
Napa Valley CA
I used to own a lawn maintenance business... Think I was about 14 when I sold it to the neighbor kid... ;)


Best way I have found to learn how a machine works is to watch it work, and notice what happens when a button is pushed or a lever is pulled. then after you have the basics figured out, ask the operator when they have downtime waiting for a truck. If they aren't jerks and you are respectful and don't ask to many stupid questions, they often will be happy to brag about what they do!

I can't tell you how many machines I have learned to run that way. Once you figure out how to figure them out, there isn't a machine you can't run. (not to say that you will be good at it!)

Go out to an intersection on a slope where there are grade changes around curves and drainage intakes and manholes and visualize what it would take to remove exactly 2" depth @4' width following the existing contour of the edges of the 4' section. Once you can picture that, the rest is cake.:Banghead


Ben~
 

spotremix

Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2010
Messages
18
Location
wirtgen
I used to own a lawn maintenance business... Think I was about 14 when I sold it to the neighbor kid... ;)


Best way I have found to learn how a machine works is to watch it work, and notice what happens when a button is pushed or a lever is pulled. then after you have the basics figured out, ask the operator when they have downtime waiting for a truck. If they aren't jerks and you are respectful and don't ask to many stupid questions, they often will be happy to brag about what they do!

I can't tell you how many machines I have learned to run that way. Once you figure out how to figure them out, there isn't a machine you can't run. (not to say that you will be good at it!)

Go out to an intersection on a slope where there are grade changes around curves and drainage intakes and manholes and visualize what it would take to remove exactly 2" depth @4' width following the existing contour of the edges of the 4' section. Once you can picture that, the rest is cake.:Banghead


Ben~

i probably have a hard time thinking about grade and slope when it comes to roads because they grade and slope is probably minimual to the naked eye.

when i look at roads, driveways, etc. even around drain covers and what not it all looks flat and level to me. but i do sort of see how that would be a factor when milling asphalt.

i would think though since most of the milling i see happening in my neck of the woods that it would be the job of the paver to do the slope and grade. usually when roads are milled here they take it down below the man holes and drain covers. when the milling machine is done it looks to be a concrete surface that is left.

its a great idea to watch a crew and ask questions if only i had the time for that. but i feel like the questions i have are to complicated to asking on a work on the job trying to get it done.

what i've observed recently when they milled the street i live on is the man on the machine steers it, raises the machine when needed and controlls the conveyor filling the dump trucks. the man on the ground engages and disengages the milling drum and lowers the machine when needed. i never saw the ground man do anything but walk along side the machine otherwise. never saw him make any adjustments as the machine was milling.

not to mention i think another that hinders my capabilities of understand exactly what is going on is the fact that i'm constantly thinking of the scale models i have which of course lack certain things only the real machine have.
 

changexlt

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Joined
Oct 22, 2008
Messages
76
Location
ND
Occupation
Construction Operator
Depending on the age of machine. Let's start with a PR-450 The operator, steers, controls conveyor, starts and stop milling drum. Turns on hydromatic grade controls, and changes slope is running on slope. Raises and lowers all legs, to get drum to clear obstacles or get drum close to surface to be milled. Also controls the moldboard raising and lowering. Also controls water flow and on and off. The ground men watch the ground, and set the depth of the machine to job specs. They also keep an eye on the cut, to make sure it stays at depth, and keep a smooth operation going.

PM-565 Operator has ability to do almost everything, except raise and lower slabbing plate/lower conveyor. (switch is not on operator platform. Cannot raise sideplates from up top. Operator can do all else, but needs eyes on the ground to keep the sonic sensors from making the machine make bumps in the road or a unsmooth surface.

Groundmen are necessary to keep the milling operation productive. Yes the operator can do it all, but at what time cost, getting on and off the machine to check the cut, stops production, not good for keeping the money flowing.

Most crews in my company have a Forman who also does ground work, possibly operate and may get water. A water truck driver who also does ground work. and the operator, who can do everything if the others are rather lazy. 3 man crew if possible with a lowboy service truck and water truck completely mobile, to get from job to job quickly.
 

spotremix

Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2010
Messages
18
Location
wirtgen
Depending on the age of machine. Let's start with a PR-450 The operator, steers, controls conveyor, starts and stop milling drum. Turns on hydromatic grade controls, and changes slope is running on slope. Raises and lowers all legs, to get drum to clear obstacles or get drum close to surface to be milled. Also controls the moldboard raising and lowering. Also controls water flow and on and off. The ground men watch the ground, and set the depth of the machine to job specs. They also keep an eye on the cut, to make sure it stays at depth, and keep a smooth operation going.

PM-565 Operator has ability to do almost everything, except raise and lower slabbing plate/lower conveyor. (switch is not on operator platform. Cannot raise sideplates from up top. Operator can do all else, but needs eyes on the ground to keep the sonic sensors from making the machine make bumps in the road or a unsmooth surface.

Groundmen are necessary to keep the milling operation productive. Yes the operator can do it all, but at what time cost, getting on and off the machine to check the cut, stops production, not good for keeping the money flowing.

Most crews in my company have a Forman who also does ground work, possibly operate and may get water. A water truck driver who also does ground work. and the operator, who can do everything if the others are rather lazy. 3 man crew if possible with a lowboy service truck and water truck completely mobile, to get from job to job quickly.

excellent explanation. i just learned a little.....

now what is the mold boards purpose? i assumed it only was raised to replace teeth on the drum.

so since the ground men set the depth of the machine to spec's does that mean the operator on the machine does not know what the depth is, what it needs to be, or how to set it? also how would the machine not stay at the depth once set? or when you say they make sure the machine stays at the depth is that taking into consideration slope and grade?

in my mind say you set the dept at 2". once you start moving that 2" setting should stay set. how would the legs of the machine raise or lower on there own? now if you take grade and slope into consideration then yes i can see where along the way the ground men might need to lower the machine or raise the machine to keep the consistant 2" dept. but on flat surface how would the machine not remain milling at 2"???
 

changexlt

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 22, 2008
Messages
76
Location
ND
Occupation
Construction Operator
The moldboard is to float along the cut during operation, or pressure can be applied, to scrape asphalt off of concrete, where the depth varies some.

Most roads aren't perfect. If they were perfectly smooth, they wouldn't need as much work. The PR-450 uses sensing arm's connected to a hydraulic controller. Somewhere on this site you will see I put pics of a 450 on here. they keep the machine at depth, but if those wheels hit a bump, dirt or foreign material they can move up, in which the machine moves up. Like at the end of a cut.

Lots of roads have a crown in the center. With a 565 and the sonic sensors which control the front legs. They read the road surface. So if the crown isn't consistent, the depth changes some. or if the operator spills a pile in front of it, or the tracks. Guess what happens when the machine drives over a pile. It leaves a bump.

Take speed also into consideration. The faster you go the deeper the machine needs to be set to get actual depth. Faster you go the more force it takes to keep the teeth in the ground.

I don't know if I've seen a perfect road yet.
 

Toegrinder

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
131
Location
CO
Occupation
Milling Foreman
Well Mr Spotremix.....being that you have the word "Wirtgen" in your description, dont you worry about it, if you have to run a Wirtgen you dont ever need to worry about REALLY knowing how to run a milling machine.

HAHAHA buurn...
 
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milling_drum

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2008
Messages
725
Location
out west lately
Occupation
asphalt mill operator (ret)
Now now Toegrinder, I've seen your little friends at App and know that YOU know how to mill whether you are now a Wirtgen fan or not....

Last nite with C&S was rather fun for a change. They have an older W2100, a single turbo 6 cylinder CAT engine. Whats so funny about this machine is that the Wirtgen Logo's on the older ones were stenciled into the frames/bodies, the cap on the water tank has the Wirtgen logo too. Last time I saw a new machine with those markings was a W2000 in 2005 in South Florida.

But this old thing is a cutting SOB, pretty good to operate too. Nice to have a milling supt thats knows a little something too even if the rest of them are worthless....

A story....So last nite I noticed the second machine is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy back there. We run outta trucks for a sec so I get down and say to the groundman...(milling 3 weeks and a complete loss, he won't last a year. Needs to go back to Walmart where they found his ass....) ..."Holy **** we laid an @ss whippin on that other machine, Lookit how far back they are hahahaha..." He Sez to me "oh they hit an overhead wire..." REALLY NOW.....I'm like "what wire?" Then I almost fall down laffing but....

I'd hate to see these poor creatures with a REAL milling machine....Wirtgen saves them their jobs really.
 

spotremix

Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2010
Messages
18
Location
wirtgen
i have wirtgen in my location for 2 reasons. one was already stated. i had to put something in the location spot and didn't want to put my real one. the other reason is because wirtgen's are my favorite cold milling machines. most by looks of course since i'm not in the construction industy and have never and probably will never run one of these machines.

since i'm a diecast model collector that has a lot to do with it as well. there are currently 3 diecast models in production. a wirtgen w2000, a wirtgen f100 and a bomag.

the f100 is to small for my liking and i didn't really care for the bomag either.

how much can a cold milling machine hold before it has to spit it out into a dump truck? when they were milling the road i live on i noticed a few times when they were milling around a medien and during the turn they shut off the conveyor belt and it wasn't spitting anything out. i assume there is a little bit of a "belly" on those machines?
 

Toegrinder

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
131
Location
CO
Occupation
Milling Foreman
Now now Toegrinder, I've seen your little friends at App and know that YOU know how to mill whether you are now a Wirtgen fan or not....

But this old thing is a cutting SOB, pretty good to operate too. Nice to have a milling supt thats knows a little something too even if the rest of them are worthless....

Yeah buddy, wirtgen til the end :D and that was a burn to the people that have run only wirtgen, I have definitely had my share of trying to train people on one..::coughlazycough::

Yeah like I said before Clayton definitely knows his stuff. Never seen him on a wirtgen but he is a natural on everything, and taught me on an 800. I'll have to give Sam crap about his wire tearing down op..
 

milling_drum

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2008
Messages
725
Location
out west lately
Occupation
asphalt mill operator (ret)
Ya for sure, Wirtgens are great as far as comming from running the older machines. Its nice to have a machine that you can actually trust to do something instead of constantly having to worry if its going to tear up over something simple.


Me and Clay was talking last nite about how much we like Wirtgens and how much we don't like them about certain things. The newer of the two 2100's has a worn tall pulley in the lower conveyor and it would take at least a day maybe two to get it fixed right...and it wouldn't be a good idea to try that on the road...


Another thing we noticed is the older lower bulkhead/front mould board's on the older 2100 do not make anything close to the same mess of material discharge all over the place. The newer one, like most of the newer ones have alot of material that sits on that lower bulkhead area and discharges quite a bit. The old one is a quick easy wash compared to the newer one. It has WAY less material down there on it at the end of the day. I had wondered about this for awhile with them thinking something was wrong with the newer ones, I'd made plenty of remarks to the people I was with that they don't make a mess like this, something must be wrong and got laffed off....now I know the difference.

Clayton is great to work for, Sam's lucky hes got a good milling supt considering the work hes taken on. Last nite I ran the CAT PR105 trimmer...whatta treat that was/is.
:O
 
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