Chinese equipment

Speedpup · May 3, 2010

Msintensus said:
In the heavy machinery business I must say that hardly any business is done locally or at least for us. We do much more business overseas to Europe and South America then we do in the US, as time passes our markets are only going to keep getting more globalized which means companies in the US are only going to continue to get hurt if they don't find a viable way to compete. We use Cummins engines and many other reputable brands in our machines which are not knock offs and we have the parts to support our machine network. In fact John Deere and CAT even have machines being manufactured in the same plant as our XCMG machines in China.

Just thought id shed some light

Shed some light on the trade imbalance please. Also shed some light on 20-30% currency manipulation of Japan & China please.

Speedpup · May 3, 2010

John White said:
I am not nessiarly anti union. But I think the days of "Joe the Joker" walking into a factory and really have no skills, and start making $15 to $20 a hour just because it is a union job, are slowely comming to a end. There are many skilled construction trades men who just barley make that. As I said I dont mind paying a little more for a good american product that will last. Look at the quality of some of the Japenise cars. In 1954 I bought a American Flyer bycycle. I worked over a year (I was a kid) picking up coke bottles along the road, sellling fire wood.) Dad made $48. a week then. The bike cost $55. I rode it for several years, then when went into the Army, my brothers rode it. At todays inflation rate that same bike would be close to $400. I dont want to pay $400 for a bike for my grand child to ride, just because it is union made and American made. So China unfortunately has givem us many products that we could not afford otherwise. But I think we need to come down off our high horse and see that we cant continue to put people on welfare, with all the freebies, because they wont work for a reasonable affordable wage. Years ago I would have two or three boys a week stop by my business, wanting to know if they could mow the lot, sweep the shop floor, wash the trucks, windows, paint, any thing to get a couple of dollars, (and if wasnt for a joint or crack). Now kids and grown ups have completely lost their work ethic. Most jobs I have taken in life, I never asked what it paid. I was happy they even gave me a job. Here is a is a example of what happened to me some time ago. Wife and I, decided to down size and sell our house. We bought two acres and with my equipt. developed it and started bulding our own house. There are some things I can do and some I cant. Our provious house I did the dry wall myself and a good bit of the bulding but on this house we were sort of on a time schedule and I had to run my full time job. When it came time for the dry wall. I contacted three dry wall co. that I know of and they never called back. I contacted two different dry wall men that were laid off and had no work. I offered to pay them the going rate. Neither was intersted because it might mess up their welfare and food stamps. I finally seen a ad in the local shopper of a drywall hanger. I called him, he came out the next day, gave me a price. I called him the next day and said go to it. I was just glad to find any one who would do it. A day later at 7 in the morning two vans and a truck with drywall showed up. Out piled about 10 Mexicans. Plugged their radio in and turned up the Mexican music. I said "oh crap, what have I got myself into". I went on to work, come home at night, all the drywall was hung. Next day, it was all taped and spackeled. Next two days was sanded and cleaned up. One fellow who could speak a little "spinglish" wanted to know if there were any big horse farms that needed help. He said he would work for free if they would provide him a horse stall to stay in. I am not defending what I did or the way they live. I just admire a man who rather work, that live off the freebies.

Bike would not cost 400 dollars now just like heavy equipment has not gone up like inflation. New manufacturing methods make them cheaper. I things all keep going they way they are we will be fighting for the horse stall to sleep in. China has given us junk and unemployment. People would take care of things better if it was not throw-away crap.

When a coal miner dies in China they get 150 bucks for death benefits. So it is cheaper to kill them than do it safely. Funny Cuba is off limits and Communist China is OK

ointhead

Plenty of non-union jobs have left this country to China. We can't work for 50 cents per hour and the cheap products vs jobs have reached a tipping point.

Rich87 · May 4, 2010

joispoi said:
I don't have a problem with foreign equipment or cars as long as they come from countries that reciprocate free trade. Japan is another nation with one sided trade laws. How many Japanes car factories are in the USA? How many US car factories are in Japan(or even cars for that matter)?

The US motor industry isn't a great example to use. I don't see that it's so much to do with the Japanese government keeping US cars out so much as the fact American cars have no export value.

They're huge, often poorly built (I've yet to see one with all the interior panels fitting properly, or indeed a reasonable attempt at a quality interior, even in "luxury" models), whilst many of the engines belong in the 1950s.

Don't get me wrong, a growling V8 muscle car sounds fantastic at the weekend, but in Tokyo you want a small nimble car that excels at city driving and will fit in tiny parking spaces because in crowded Japanese cities every square foot of level ground is incredibly valuable, whilst in the UK we're paying $5/US gallon for fuel, so something that does 18mpg is worthless as an everyday car - far too expensive to run when you can pick up something from Asia or Europe that is cheaper, more comfortable, built to a higher standard and will do 60-80mpg.
The fact that many engines from Detruit produce fewer hp-per-litre-capacity than a datsun-something is exactly the reason noone wants them. They're horrifically inefficient, and the only reason they're viable is the low low gas prices which is a situation almost unique to America. Everyone else pays far more for fuel. Plus, American cars typically don't handle well in the corners so have little value as sports cars despite their monstrous engines.

Emissions regulations are improving the situation by making people develop the efficiency of engines rather than just adding more cylinders, but still the only place they excel is on big open US highways where you can expend the power in a straight line. But therein lies the problem. US highways. Not British, Japanese or European highways.

When you factor in the dominance of unions in Detroit, and the high wages paid to essentially unskilled workers, it's little wonder US-produced cars are restricted to the US. You're paying too much for too little. Any Fords or Chevrolets sold outside America are almost always produced outside America and are built to a far higher standard.

If the US Construction Industry wants to avoid going the same way as the US car industry, they'll need to innovate and sell globally, instead of keep on doing what they've been doing for decades in the flawed hope their domestic market will sustain them because America is "so big". It won't. Some US companies are already innovating, some aren't. I pity those that aren't.

Some Chinese equipment is tat, but some is not that bad. They may be banned from selling clones of European machines, but the lessons they learn from stripping other people's machines will allow them to build decent machines of their own design. Some bits like complex electronics don't get done so well, but structurally and mechanically many of the machines are not bad at all, so Western companies should be very afraid.

Dealer networks also need to get a grip. Marking up a $15 airfilter to $50 is ludicrous. In the UK, an independent mechanic I know can service Land Rovers with genuine Land Rover parts for approximately 20-30% of what our local franchised Land Rover dealer charges. The same is true of many other companies. Of course the main dealers will tell you they're counterfeit, but again, you can see that half the time it's actually been bought wholesale from the dealer. It just hasn't got the badge on, same as Donaldson/Bobcat.

Their greed and complacency are not sustainable, and I guess the lesson is adapt or die.

Equally, there are bits of beaurocracy - especially in the EU - that could do with getting stripped out because they do nothing but cost people money, waste people's time and damage industry.

joispoi · May 4, 2010

Rich87 said:
The US motor industry isn't a great example to use. I don't see that it's so much to do with the Japanese government keeping US cars out so much as the fact American cars have no export value.

Don't confuse the issues and please don't make up "facts". US cars have export value to those who can afford them. Re-read my post and substitute "British car manufacturers" for "US car manufacturers". The same holds true in Japan even with the undependable-higher priced right hand drives.

Japan keeps US everything out of Japan. It's not just an anti-US position, either. The allow NO foreign enterprise. You could not even open a lemonade stand or run a hot-dog cart in Japan. (I won't get into their "Japanese only" restaurants and enterprises where foreigners are refused hospitality and services.)

Msintensus · May 4, 2010

I guess you may not have driven some high end sports cars before. The US has a handful of cars that can compete with the performance, luxury, and quality standards that many foreign companies have like Porsche and BMW. Go look around rich people in other countries drive almost everything but US cars.

Speedpup · May 4, 2010

Msintensus said:
I guess you may not have driven some high end sports cars before. The US has a handful of cars that can compete with the performance, luxury, and quality standards that many foreign companies have like Porsche and BMW. Go look around rich people in other countries drive almost everything but US cars.

yea because they tax the crap out of US cars abroad. Let's tax a toyoduh like Japan taxes a Ford and see what Yoda sells in the USA.

Speedpup · May 4, 2010

joispoi said:
Don't confuse the issues and please don't make up "facts". US cars have export value to those who can afford them. Re-read my post and substitute "British car manufacturers" for "US car manufacturers". The same holds true in Japan even with the undependable-higher priced right hand drives.

Japan keeps US everything out of Japan. It's not just an anti-US position, either. The allow NO foreign enterprise. You could not even open a lemonade stand or run a hot-dog cart in Japan. (I won't get into their "Japanese only" restaurants and enterprises where foreigners are refused hospitality and services.)

Friend in the US service protecting Japan's ASS walks by a bar and it says NO AMERICANS ALLOW.

I mean China would like a little pay back to Japan if we were not protecting them for 60 years.

Speedpup · May 4, 2010

Rich87 said:
The US motor industry isn't a great example to use. I don't see that it's so much to do with the Japanese government keeping US cars out so much as the fact American cars have no export value.

They're huge, often poorly built (I've yet to see one with all the interior panels fitting properly, or indeed a reasonable attempt at a quality interior, even in "luxury" models), whilst many of the engines belong in the 1950s.

Don't get me wrong, a growling V8 muscle car sounds fantastic at the weekend, but in Tokyo you want a small nimble car that excels at city driving and will fit in tiny parking spaces because in crowded Japanese cities every square foot of level ground is incredibly valuable, whilst in the UK we're paying $5/US gallon for fuel, so something that does 18mpg is worthless as an everyday car - far too expensive to run when you can pick up something from Asia or Europe that is cheaper, more comfortable, built to a higher standard and will do 60-80mpg.
The fact that many engines from Detruit produce fewer hp-per-litre-capacity than a datsun-something is exactly the reason noone wants them. They're horrifically inefficient, and the only reason they're viable is the low low gas prices which is a situation almost unique to America. Everyone else pays far more for fuel. Plus, American cars typically don't handle well in the corners so have little value as sports cars despite their monstrous engines.

Emissions regulations are improving the situation by making people develop the efficiency of engines rather than just adding more cylinders, but still the only place they excel is on big open US highways where you can expend the power in a straight line. But therein lies the problem. US highways. Not British, Japanese or European highways.

When you factor in the dominance of unions in Detroit, and the high wages paid to essentially unskilled workers, it's little wonder US-produced cars are restricted to the US. You're paying too much for too little. Any Fords or Chevrolets sold outside America are almost always produced outside America and are built to a far higher standard.

If the US Construction Industry wants to avoid going the same way as the US car industry, they'll need to innovate and sell globally, instead of keep on doing what they've been doing for decades in the flawed hope their domestic market will sustain them because America is "so big". It won't. Some US companies are already innovating, some aren't. I pity those that aren't.

Some Chinese equipment is tat, but some is not that bad. They may be banned from selling clones of European machines, but the lessons they learn from stripping other people's machines will allow them to build decent machines of their own design. Some bits like complex electronics don't get done so well, but structurally and mechanically many of the machines are not bad at all, so Western companies should be very afraid.

Dealer networks also need to get a grip. Marking up a $15 airfilter to $50 is ludicrous. In the UK, an independent mechanic I know can service Land Rovers with genuine Land Rover parts for approximately 20-30% of what our local franchised Land Rover dealer charges. The same is true of many other companies. Of course the main dealers will tell you they're counterfeit, but again, you can see that half the time it's actually been bought wholesale from the dealer. It just hasn't got the badge on, same as Donaldson/Bobcat.

Their greed and complacency are not sustainable, and I guess the lesson is adapt or die.

Equally, there are bits of beaurocracy - especially in the EU - that could do with getting stripped out because they do nothing but cost people money, waste people's time and damage industry.

Funny all the car companies in the world only have a 3% market penetration in Japan. Renault is partners with Nissan but cannot sell Renaults next to a Nissan or on the same lot. World Trade Org. president stated last year Japan has the most is the most closed industrialized nation to trad in the world by far!

Saab sells a car here and it is great, see what a Ford or Chevy cost in Saab's homeland

cummins05 · May 4, 2010

We had a Changling wheel loader cummins reman motor and ZF tranny.
Not a good machine they can't even copy Komatsu well.

dayexco · May 4, 2010

from what i'm reading here...the only solution is....is that we convince ALL consumers in the US to encourage our govt. to ban imports...or place import tariffs on them tall enough they can't compete....then we need to convince ALL of our family, neighbors, business associates, etc....to refuse to buy foreign goods, even it it means a considerable cost savings....remember reagan? trickle down? the union contractor who runs all cat equipment, competing with a non union shop running asian equipment....will have a heckuva time competing. is it good? is it bad? i don't know...i want "stuff" at the best price also. a good product at the best price. any of you old enough, remember how the japanese caught the US with their pants down in the excavator market back in the early-mid 8o's? i grew up on drott excavators....noisy, (detroits) high flow/low pressure hydraulics? hydraulic leaks daily, carried several 5 gal. pails of hydraulic oil in your truck? did our manufacturers adapt? no.....they just started doing what case and link belt do today...sumitomo....what deere does today....hitachi.....what cat does today....mitsubishi...it's very easy to sit here and wave the flag, brag of our patriotism, and then run to walmart or best buy and buy the cheapest foreign made crap on the shelf...it's a fact of life, happens all the time.

i live in south dakota with very little union influence...and i say this as NOT a slam against them, i see nothing wrong with a group of people banding together to negotiate better wages/benefits....but the FEW unions we have here, and i know quite a few union members...that hesitate not to buy foreign stuff..

where this is all going to go, sadly to say....is being now it's a global economy...it this all will seek it's own level, just like water does. employees now accustomed to making $30 an hr with bennies, and his asian counterpart making $2 a day with zero bennies....will eventually even out...just the way it's going to be...things even themselves out.

Speedpup · May 4, 2010

Went to Sears and I always buy there hose nozzle that is made in America. I grab it and it looks the same as last year. I look closer and it is now made in China and cost a dollar more. Label now says "Wash hands after use because it contains substances know in CA to cause cancer"

ointhead

Sears is shifting everything to China.

dayexco · May 4, 2010

Speedpup said:
Sears is shifting everything to China.

that's like saying......that cat and deere are shifting their excavator lines to japan?

CM1995 · May 5, 2010

dayexco said:
....will eventually even out...just the way it's going to be...things even themselves out.

I agree, no country can ignore the laws of economics whether free market, Communist or a combination. This news article - http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601010&sid=aMbfBKW.uKn4 - sheds some light on what I think is coming Chinas way.

Cat420 · May 5, 2010

I noticed an interesting thing. I see some posts complaining the Japan keeps everyone out, while almost in the next breath saying that we need to tax foreign products to point where they aren't viable.

Serious question here. Are we really mad that we can't sell in Japan or just jealous that they have managed to do what many here would like? Put another way, what makes this an ideal strategy for us, but evil for them? As many are aware, jacking up tariffs only really works if it's one sided. If everyone raises them, then you just pay more with no benefit.

full disclosure: I do NOT want to see us at $2/day to try and compete. There has to be some way to balance things without running to the extremes, but how many people will recognize what that looks like to know if something is a good compromise or just us getting shafted again?

joispoi · May 5, 2010

It sounds like you're responding to one of my posts. I don't think Japan's international trade practice is evil. I actually think it's wise. They are looking out for themselves and rightly so....nobody else will.

Tariffs are a form of tax. I don't promote adding new taxes mainly because the revenue will be squandered. However, tariffs seem to be the only viable means of curbing "dumping".

Cash can't continue to flow in only one direction indefinitely. What do you propose as an alternative? :beatsme

Cat420 · May 5, 2010

Not really sure at this point. If I could fix these kinds of problems, I'd be able to pay someone to post for me

Let's assume we (and by "we" I mean everyone) is able to adjust tariffs and such in a way to completely blast China or any foreign country that's undercutting their economy out of the water. What is the plan to build out of the ashes? If we go back to business as usual, thinking we have won, someone will be back in a week making something cheaper to gain market share.

That's part of my original question, how do you know what a good balance looks like? Part of that requires workers to look at things like adults and be realistic about what they really need to live on (much less than you think without a large debt load, but that's a different discussion). The other side of the coin is on the companies to decide that just maybe if you treat people like human beings, they won't cripple you with some of the things like we see from the unions in the auto industry ( I don't mean to single out unions, so please don't go there for the sake of this thread, it's just what popped into my head first)

I have to run to work now or I'd add more, but I'll be back later.

joispoi · May 5, 2010

The only other idea that comes to mind is this:

In the USA, a product must be UL listed in order to be sold legally. In Europe, products must be CE marked in order to be sold legally.

If part of the process of getting CE marked or UL listed involved submitting documentation that proves that the manufacturing company respects worker safety and (its a stretch) minimum wage (adjusted?) requirements (USA and European standards respectively).....then there would not be such a trade imbalance.

To me this is most appealing because it is not a tax. It's a product compliance requirement. Who would lose in this scenario?

Chinese equipment

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