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Feds Demand 29 mpg Pickup Truck

CEwriter

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The U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) and the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) jointly established new federal rules that set the first-ever national greenhouse gas emissions standards and will increase the fuel economy of all new passenger cars and light trucks sold in the United States by about 5 percent each year until the overall fleet average reaches 34.1 miles per gallon in model year 2016.

Find out how the rules will be implemented, how much it is likely to cost, and what fuel economy has to do with greenhouse gases . . .

Hope this is useful,

Larry
 

dayexco

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a glut of fuel on the market, obama just said "let's drill"....and we're after 35 mpg pickups...makes zero sense to me
 

Speedpup

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a glut of fuel on the market, obama just said "let's drill"....and we're after 35 mpg pickups...makes zero sense to me

glut of fuel? It's over 3 here on Long Island diesel is 3.15 and as we know it could be 5 in two weeks if anything in the world happens to trigger supply or even speculation of it.

Let's drill takes 6+ years minimum to get going. Then you have the not in my backyard blocking it all. What was opened and what was closed will not make a huge dent in supply needs that rise every year a few percent if I am not mistaken.

If they can do it let's! It will reduce the huge trade deficit also cause by oil coming here and increase our independence,
 
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John C.

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I've never figured out how you can legislate physics.

While the story mentions collaboration with the auto manufacturers I'm thinking the government came in with a gun in their hand and then told the manufacturers what they were agreeing to.

Small diesels could make that without much problem but there is the issue of soot. Gas has about hit it limits in small pickups. I'm wondering if those regs are going to cover four wheel drive?

The only thing good in the mess is that we have a couple of election cycles to go through before this get implemented.
 

dayexco

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I've never figured out how you can legislate physics.

While the story mentions collaboration with the auto manufacturers I'm thinking the government came in with a gun in their hand and then told the manufacturers what they were agreeing to.

Small diesels could make that without much problem but there is the issue of soot. Gas has about hit it limits in small pickups. I'm wondering if those regs are going to cover four wheel drive?



The only thing good in the mess is that we have a couple of election cycles to go through before this get implemented.


amen
 

CEwriter

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They're not legislating, they're regulating.

They're not regulating physics. They're regulating fuel economy. Physics won't change, but just as the heavy duty industry delivered 99% cleaner diesel engines when EPA imposed exhaust regulations, the auto industry will make cars and light trucks run on less fuel. As noted, many of the technologies are already there.

There is no issue with diesel soot (see the previous paragraph). Small diesels will deliver the fuel economy they need without much modification and Cummins (at least) is counting on it after spending millions expanding its Columbus, IN, plant to add a line where they'll build light-duty diesels (mostly for Chrysler, I think).

I'm sure we're a long way from the fuel efficiency limit of gasoline engines. Ford's new 6.2-liter V8 for the 2011 Super Duties is 15 percent more fuel efficient than its predecessor. And nobody's holding their feet to the fire yet. The key, though, is that it's not just about engines. Efficiencies the auto makers are getting out of 6-speed transmissions is incredible.

Ford claims buyers of the 2011 F-250 with their new Power Stroke diesel will get 18 percent better fuel economy than those running last year’s Power Stroke. GM says the new Duramax is 11 percent more fuel efficient than its predecessor, and adds that its economy advantage jumps to 28 percent when driving under heavy loads.

At the Super Duty introduction last month Ford said the 2011 F-150 would have what they call an Eco Boost drive train option. They couldn't give an exact economy number, but I suspect it will be 20+, given the Transit Connect with Eco Boost is at 23 mpg, with the only changes being a slightly smaller gasoline engine paired with a six-speed and a lot of lighter-weight materials that all of the trucks are going to be built from anyway.

This is all low-hanging fruit that nobody is harvesting because nobody's forced them to, yet. Consider the possibilities of a light-duty, high-speed diesel paired to an electric hybrid drive. 30 mpg would be no strain at all.

NHTSA's fuel-economy standards currently apply to four-wheel drive pickups. I suspect these will too.

Oh, and isn't it a little short sighted to look at a temporary oversupply ("glut" if you will) of a non-renewable resource, largely controlled by a group of people whose sworn duty is (after removing all of our money) killing us as a reason not to conserve those resources? Think whatever you want about global warming, I for one am not willing to fight for my perceived right to enrich those who buy guns for Bin Laden and his ilk.

L

I've never figured out how you can legislate physics.

While the story mentions collaboration with the auto manufacturers I'm thinking the government came in with a gun in their hand and then told the manufacturers what they were agreeing to.

Small diesels could make that without much problem but there is the issue of soot. Gas has about hit it limits in small pickups. I'm wondering if those regs are going to cover four wheel drive?

The only thing good in the mess is that we have a couple of election cycles to go through before this get implemented.
 
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biggrader

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I'm not a rocket scientist but....... I owned a 1974 pickup that got 10 miles/gallon. My last pickup (2003) got 11 miles/gallon. Both gassers. With 30 years of technology, fuel efficiency and emission improvements, is that all the better the car makers can do? It seems to me that if the tailpipes are supposed to be so much cleaner that they could do alot better than that. I think that 30 miles /gallon for a pickup should be able to be reached very easily if WHOEVER has there thumbs on the car makers lets go. I dont know maybe its the carmakers themselves. Any insight?
 

CEwriter

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It's just conjecture, but I think the reason they're not more efficient already is pretty simple market dynamics. The technology's available, but pickup drivers have proven to be rich enough not to care much about a 10 or 20 percent improvement in fuel efficiency. Jack the price of the vehicle up $1,000, though, and they start shopping for alternatives.

If it's going to cost $900 per vehicle (or whatever) to make them more efficient, you have to force all of the makers to do it or nobody will. GM's hybrid Silverado and Sierra are simply picking up on the Green marketing trend that started with cars, and they're anticipating the regulation that EPA and NHTSA just announced.

I'm curious, what sort of truck do you have that's getting 11 mpg?

L
 

biggrader

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2003 chevrolet 1500hd 6.0 liter. I can get 13 on a long trip but short trips are awful. Hook up a trailer and u better look for gas station around every corner. just looked at the computer in the truck. avg mpg 11.2
 
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biggrader

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It's just conjecture, but I think the reason they're not more efficient already is pretty simple market dynamics. The technology's available, but pickup drivers have proven to be rich enough not to care much about a 10 or 20 percent improvement in fuel efficiency. Jack the price of the vehicle up $1,000, though, and they start shopping for alternatives.

If it's going to cost $900 per vehicle (or whatever) to make them more efficient, you have to force all of the makers to do it or nobody will. GM's hybrid Silverado and Sierra are simply picking up on the Green marketing trend that started with cars, and they're anticipating the regulation that EPA and NHTSA just announced.

I'm curious, what sort of truck do you have that's getting 11 mpg?

L

but dont u think if one maker was getting 20 mpg and everyone started buying them that the others would follow? Now I know that the hemi's and the chevy's are starting to claim the 20+ mark but even a couple of years ago that was unheard of.
 

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The difference between legislation and regulation is semantics.

Don't get me wrong about fuel economy. Better mileage is good. I've always been at the front of finding ways to pay less to operate my iron. Physics says it takes a minimum amount of energy to move a specified weight a specified distance. The internal combustion engine is finite in the amount of energy that can be output to actually move the vehicle. The real answer is finding a different type of engine that can use 100% of the fuel to move a vehicle.

I have a problem with simply daisy chaining technologies one on top of each other in the name of fuel economy which cost me more to purchase, operate and repair. At some point my customers will not be able to pay the added costs I will have to assess per job. Daisy chains also add weight which reduces payload. I might not be able to carry the tools I need to repair a machine.

Look at the addition of particulate filters and urea systems on diesels. A friend of mine is now selling the service of cleaning particulate filters for $1,200 a piece. In order to do this he had to purchase a machine for somewhere around $45,000. The truck is down a couple of days and the only alternative is $5,000 or more for a new unit. The engines burn more fuel and don't run as long before overhaul. Soot isn't a problem because extra fuel is used to burn off the soot from the filter. I don't believe I would call that progress.

One only has to look at the Toyota situation to see that technology will present as many problems as solutions. Federally mandated technology will present more than the usual amount of problems. I don't believe I want to participate in that.
 

CEwriter

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but dont u think if one maker was getting 20 mpg and everyone started buying them that the others would follow? Now I know that the hemi's and the chevy's are starting to claim the 20+ mark but even a couple of years ago that was unheard of.

I think they should follow, and the fact that Ford reversed its decision to can the Ranger after reviewing 2009 sales may be an example of how some consumer demand for efficient pickups is affecting some auto maker decisions.

But I think that full-size pickup buyers have demonstrated (by continued buying) that they don't care too much about fuel efficiency. That puts an auto maker who thinks maybe he could gain an advantage with a more fuel-efficient truck in a tough spot. Does he buck the trend and throw a LOT of development money at a very fuel efficient truck, hoping that consumer tide is turning toward efficiency?

Current experience says, "No." With today's fuel efficiencies in the mid teens at best, people who need full-size trucks (real or perceived need) have gotten accustomed to putting a lot of their budget into gasoline. Even if a whole bunch of them suddenly get budget conscious and go truck shopping at the same time (pretty unlikely), few are going to dump their brand or dealer affinity to get a truck that gets 16 mpg when the one they're replacing got 14.

I am not pro-regulation in general. I've just seen very good results from diesel emissions regulations. Yes they've gone too far with the way they've regulated existing machines in the field, but regulation on the manufacture of new diesel equipment has achieved the desired results pretty well.

Regulation had to deliver clean diesel because a free market (even our faux-free one) never would. Not enough individual buyers would pay for clean diesels to swing the market in that direction. That doesn't make clean air any less necessary. It hasn't been free or easy, but few valuable protections of public health and safety are.

We need more fuel-efficient vehicles. Yes, we do. Let's count the reasons:

1) Look at our balance of trade. Reason enough righ there.
2) As long as we're in the neighborhood, look closely at the socio-political ambitions of our trading partners; the jolly recipients of the money we spend on foreign oil. Yep, that's a really convincing reason to dramatically reduce our oil consumption.
3) Check the long-term outlook for oil supply. Only so many decomposing dinosaurs buried out there. Our 5 percent of the world's population is using up 25 percent of the oil burned. Seems like bad business to pursue the "use with abandon" policy with the prospect of Asia taking over global economic dominance. Might make some good foreign policy to at least attempt to save some oil for their burgeoning middle class, even if we are too short sighted to care about the inevitable long lines for $15 per gallon 87 octane.
3) Check our air quality. It's not worsening quite so fast as before we started regulating almost everything. Clearly, something more needs to be done.
4) Global warming. (Yeah, I went there.) Let me just ask a question: Do you really think 187 countries have signed the Kyoto Protocol and the European Union has mired itself in the divisive politics of a multi-national carbon cap and trade program because none of them could come up with somebody smart enough to see problems with climate-change statistics? Energy companies are among those with the most to lose from regulating greenhouse gases. Virtually no other entities on the planet have more political clout than energy companies. If there were the slightest problems with the assertion that human activity is contributing to global warming, there would be no Kyoto or European Union Emission Trading Scheme.

Pickup and car buyers need dramatic fuel efficiency increases to change their buying behavior (as long as we're going to keep fuel prices so low).

Auto makers need a level playing field -- all of their competitors have to make the same dramatic fuel efficiency improvements -- for the process to be fair. And boy will they create more fuel-efficient vehicles! Innovation is what we do best.

So to get more fuel-efficient vehicles, we need regulation to raise the fuel-efficiency of that level playing field.

Oh my, that took longer than I thought. Sorry.

Hope it helps,

L
 

Speedpup

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Speedpup

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2003 chevrolet 1500hd 6.0 liter. I can get 13 on a long trip but short trips are awful. Hook up a trailer and u better look for gas station around every corner. just looked at the computer in the truck. avg mpg 11.2

there is something wrong with your truck if the mileage is that low.:eek:
 

Cat420

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I'm not a rocket scientist but....... I owned a 1974 pickup that got 10 miles/gallon. My last pickup (2003) got 11 miles/gallon. Both gassers. With 30 years of technology, fuel efficiency and emission improvements, is that all the better the car makers can do? It seems to me that if the tailpipes are supposed to be so much cleaner that they could do alot better than that. I think that 30 miles /gallon for a pickup should be able to be reached very easily if WHOEVER has there thumbs on the car makers lets go. I dont know maybe its the carmakers themselves. Any insight?

The hidden efficiency that no one sees is in the hp numbers. Your new truck easily has double or possibly triple the hp of the 74, but gets the same mileage. If that's not increased efficiency, I don't know what is.

Unfortunately, fuel efficiency hasn't been a popular selling point for very long, so there's a lot of momentum in the system to overcome. Sure we hear about it when the cost hurts, but people have short memories. I'm glad to not be on the marketing team that's charged with trying appeal to a new audience without losing current customers. The market waffles back and forth so often that I can see why they would just stick with what works and just try to ride it out.
 

OldStuff

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Nothing is impossible without a time limitation .
Hard telling what we will see happen by 2016.( If we see 2016 ?)
 

John C.

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The price of fuel itself will drive the mileage debate. A year or so ago when fuel was close to $4.00 a gallon you couldn't give away a pickup. When the price dropped back they became marketable again. The manufacturers probably didn't need much more than that to start working on more efficient use of a gallon of gas. On the other hand we had to bail out GM because they had no foresight in the matter.

I am curious to see what the government will do when a 29 mile per gallon pickup can't be sold because it won't carry a 1,000 pound load or pull the same in a trailer. I'm also thinking a $24,000 pickup will then become a $40,000 pickup. Fleets are the number one purchaser of pickups. Just how many do think they will be able to afford and remember each pickup reduced because of purchase price represents a job that won't be filled.

This is just another example of someone at a desk telling us what we need.

As for me, if I can make the numbers work, I'll start a rebuild facility to keep the old ones running.
 

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I have to say I'm in John C's camp here. Government regulation is rarely good, it's about politics. I'm not opposed to improving fuel economy, but I am opposed to its being imposed. The market should drive technology, not the government. I can guarantee that if this mandate remains intact, light trucks as we know them will cease to exist. Like John says, it takes a fixed amount of energy to do a specific amount of work, this is a law of physics. If we expect to continue to do the amount of work we do with our trucks, it will require a specific amount of energy that can not change. I also agree with John in what this new technology will cost us. The diesel option on a pickup truck is now in the area of $10,000. This is due to the latest emissions requirements. Hybrids seem to be the latest fad in gaining fuel mileage, but ti is my understanding that these really only save fuel in city driving conditions. Plus you have the weight and cost of a bank of batteries that needs replacing after just a few years. I'm not sold on that technology as being cost efficient.

To me, the market should drive technological development, not the government. Any manufacturer that can develop a pickup that gets 100% better fuel mileage than their competitor (we are talking about a 100% improvement here) would definitely have a sales edge over their competitors if said pickup could do the same work in the same time.
 
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