New company, general questions....(pics)

Buckethead · Nov 22, 2009

VantageTES

Water main tends to go in alot deeper then cable/fiber. You think you have fun working around stuff in a 3' trench? Try going through the same spot except another 17' deeper and tell me what you find down there!

Aliate said the pics were taken in New Jersey. Water mains in NJ are usually 4 feet of cover over the top of the pipe.

stock · Nov 22, 2009

Well with a duck or excavator or skid steer even the hoe will take a breaker and may have been quicker,cheaper and less stressful on the employees...

special tool · Nov 22, 2009

Aliate said:
I rented a walk behind saw with a 16 inch blade and the thing was nothing but trouble, the only time I had an easy time pulling out thick asphalt was the two times that I used a saw with a 30 inch blade. I was using an case 580 with 6000 hours on it so I dont know if that was the problem. My next job Im going to rent a john deere 410 and see how that works out. I also try to keep a clean trench as far as the edges, I dont know maybe Im wrong there. Everytime I did a neat job, nobody seemed to care, they just want production...you ever run into that?

For sure if you are going to continue using a backhoe, you need to cut more.
You can use a narrower bucket on one of those things, but then you leave the bottom of the cut edges ragged.
You need something with a little power.

stock · Nov 22, 2009

Aliate said:
I rented a walk behind saw with a 16 inch blade and the thing was nothing but trouble, the only time I had an easy time pulling out thick asphalt was the two times that I used a saw with a 30 inch blade. I was using an case 580 with 6000 hours on it so I dont know if that was the problem. My next job Im going to rent a john deere 410 and see how that works out. I also try to keep a clean trench as far as the edges, I dont know maybe Im wrong there. Everytime I did a neat job, nobody seemed to care, they just want production...you ever run into that?

If you have a neat cut it will help to keep your quantities tight and also make repair easier.If you do not cut there is no knowing how big a scab will come up and have to be repaired and then you will still have to cut the edges.

Aliate · Nov 22, 2009

will a small size excavator, like one of those m322's have a problem with asphalt that is only cut 60%? Will it rip up the edges of the road or still leave a neat cut? And how much power do they have compared to backhoes, I see the horsepower ratings arnt much higher at least with the small size excavators. (m322's and 319's)

stock · Nov 22, 2009

Don't look at HP compare the break out force of the Buckets that where the exc win over the Bhoe

TimHay · Nov 22, 2009

I really think you got a good company going
remeber when you rent you wast your money (I think), Alot of ditchs were dug with a backhoe, and you have two machines in one. I have a 50D mini it will out dig my 310sg in easy going at 3' deep. Any deeper or hard ground and the 310 is way better. But the mini gets into tight corners. But you need a skiddsteer. I dont know a thing about wheeled excavators so personally i would noy by one. Around here water lines are 8-10' deep.
WORD OF MOUTH is the best advertising you will get. Yes get a web site i dont have one yet bit hope to soon
good luck

TimHay · Nov 22, 2009

stock said:
Don't look at HP compare the break out force of the Buckets that where the exc win over the Bhoe

You are right i would rather dig with my 690 E have a bigger ditch then struggle with my 310sg. Break out force is every thing

Red Bank · Nov 22, 2009

Aliate, the following advice is by no means the only way to "do it", this is just how we do it, we are in the water/sewer business, first we cut the road with a standard concrete floor saw, we never hook up the water hose, but I think if we did it would be easier on the blades. Then we use a breaker mounted on a back hoe, or excavator to break it up. Then we scoop it up and put it in the dump truck. We work in the streets and for the most part we can manuever around pretty good. If you are wanting to buy some equipment I would recommend a backhoe, trailer and dump truck. On the backhoe you can get a hammer and a quick attachment on the rear. Or as mentioned before you can get a skid steer and a hammer attachment, however we tried that before and I don't know if it was the hammer or what but it did not work too good. Before you jump the gun and buy something-demo different pieces of equipment and see what you think works the best for you. Talk to the dealer salesmen and explain your background and what you are wanting it to do, they will be more open to allow you to demo the equipment. As far as wanting to branch out to water, I don't know,if that is what you want to do then go for it, however I would stick to what you are doing now if you are making money and have the work lined up. Also, look around and see if there is something else you would like to do. It is nice to specialize in something where there is not a lot of competition. That is what we do, we slipline and pipe burst sewer lines and now we have started doing the same for water. You can check out www.krgutility.com, that is our website, you might decide to try get into that area. But whatever you do, good luck and it sounds like you have a good head on your shoulders and a good family to support and work with you.

special tool · Nov 22, 2009

Aliate said:
will a small size excavator, like one of those m322's have a problem with asphalt that is only cut 60%? Will it rip up the edges of the road or still leave a neat cut? And how much power do they have compared to backhoes, I see the horsepower ratings arnt much higher at least with the small size excavators. (m322's and 319's)

I never use any machine smaller than a 15 ton in the road - it just takes too much screwing around.
I think a 322 is still a mini, right?
I don't think I would mess around with that, either.

I cut the road about 4-5 inches and even if they are 6-8 asphalt, the ex leaves the top cut perfect - and it goeas fast.
I can cross a 40 foot road in about 10 minutes after its cut - and that includes turning around and horsing it up into the truck.

Now you don't have screw around dragging all that crap to the job too - compressor, hose, hammers, bits, 2 extra knuckleheads, etc, etc.

If I were you ALWAYS in the street, I would get a duck with a blade (if anyone makes one with a blade??) - because then you trap the asphalt against the blade and scoop it - you wont even believe how fast you'll go.

Aliate · Nov 22, 2009

Red Bank said:
Aliate, the following advice is by no means the only way to "do it", this is just how we do it, we are in the water/sewer business, first we cut the road with a standard concrete floor saw, we never hook up the water hose, but I think if we did it would be easier on the blades. Then we use a breaker mounted on a back hoe, or excavator to break it up. Then we scoop it up and put it in the dump truck. We work in the streets and for the most part we can manuever around pretty good. If you are wanting to buy some equipment I would recommend a backhoe, trailer and dump truck. On the backhoe you can get a hammer and a quick attachment on the rear. Or as mentioned before you can get a skid steer and a hammer attachment, however we tried that before and I don't know if it was the hammer or what but it did not work too good. Before you jump the gun and buy something-demo different pieces of equipment and see what you think works the best for you. Talk to the dealer salesmen and explain your background and what you are wanting it to do, they will be more open to allow you to demo the equipment. As far as wanting to branch out to water, I don't know,if that is what you want to do then go for it, however I would stick to what you are doing now if you are making money and have the work lined up. Also, look around and see if there is something else you would like to do. It is nice to specialize in something where there is not a lot of competition. That is what we do, we slipline and pipe burst sewer lines and now we have started doing the same for water. You can check out www.krgutility.com, that is our website, you might decide to try get into that area. But whatever you do, good luck and it sounds like you have a good head on your shoulders and a good family to support and work with you.

Thanks for the advice, branching out into water lines would probably be within 5 years or so, nothing immediate. Right now I have a good single axle dumptruck that Ive pulled a 24,000lb rocksaw with no problem. My father who has a lot of experience in this business prefers case backhoes and thinks a case 590 would be best for me, but Ive seen john deere 710's and I want to look into them. They are only 2 inches wider than a 590, but about 1/3 more breakout force. I know that as my first and second purchases, they are very important, so Im trying to do as much research as possible. I dont like that the 710's that arnt 2008-2009 dont have joysticks for the front bucket, and it seems like none of them have 4 in 1 buckets which is an absolute must for me. Im also looking into buying a skid steer mid next year and I think Im going to go with a Cat, not sure on the size yet. Id prefer something that can load a tri-axle.

I really appreciate all the advice everyone, its very helpful. Its hard to find good solid advice from people who have experience.

bluntman410g · Nov 22, 2009

good luck with the biz

Aliate · Nov 22, 2009

thanks

Hendrik · Nov 22, 2009

My personal preference is for an excavator, especially if you work in tight spots. How much of an advantage is the loader on the backhoe going to be versus a mud bucket on an ex?
If you want to get fancy you can put a rock/cement/asphalt saw onto an ex but they would be very expensive.
A hydraulic hammer is a must have in your situation, consider a 100kg bloke leaning on a jackhammer versus a 5 tonne ex leaning on a hyd hammer.
Duck versus tracks?
The main advantage of the duck is that it can be driven from site to site but their disadvantage is they only tend to come in bigger sizes and are not as maneuverable as track machines, trying to straddle a trench with a duck is awkward.
If you are going the track ex route you have to consider size, firstly it has to be able to load/unload into your truck. It has to have the digging depth and the power to do the job in the conditions you work in. They make a staggered teeth bucket for machines these days which increase the digging power in tough conditions.
Basically it is a matter of sitting down and working out the pro and cons of each set up, have a look around at prices for machines, you may be able to pick up a good used ex with hammer and a selection of buckets for not much money but backhoes are pretty cheap if you don't mind an older machine.
Ohh and you'll want this to stick on the ex http://www.digbits.co.uk/excavator_attachments.htm#boom_broom

Aliate · Nov 22, 2009

special tool said:
I never use any machine smaller than a 15 ton in the road - it just takes too much screwing around.
I think a 322 is still a mini, right?
I don't think I would mess around with that, either.

I cut the road about 4-5 inches and even if they are 6-8 asphalt, the ex leaves the top cut perfect - and it goeas fast.
I can cross a 40 foot road in about 10 minutes after its cut - and that includes turning around and horsing it up into the truck.

Now you don't have screw around dragging all that crap to the job too - compressor, hose, hammers, bits, 2 extra knuckleheads, etc, etc.

If I were you ALWAYS in the street, I would get a duck with a blade (if anyone makes one with a blade??) - because then you trap the asphalt against the blade and scoop it - you wont even believe how fast you'll go.

The 322 is actually a 25t machine. Sometimes I am running into 15 inch thick asphalt on top of 10 inches of concrete, but on average Im hitting 12 inches of asphalt going across city streets. Ive had a lot of hard jobs this year thats why I want something with plenty of power. The best digging I had was literally through bricks. They demolished a building then paved on top of it, so I was digging through brick, tiles, pieces of steel pipe etc. It was almost comical.

I thought about it a lot today and its hard to shy away from a good backhoe because I might start with the house services to ease my way into the main line work, and I think it would be easier using a backhoe on someones lawn than an excavator. I can also pick up a good case 590 for 50,000, I think I would be hard pressed to find a good wheel excavator for that price, unless Im wrong.

And yeah you are right about that blade it would help a lot.

Hendrik said:
My personal preference is for an excavator, especially if you work in tight spots. How much of an advantage is the loader on the backhoe going to be versus a mud bucket on an ex?
If you want to get fancy you can put a rock/cement/asphalt saw onto an ex but they would be very expensive.
A hydraulic hammer is a must have in your situation, consider a 100kg bloke leaning on a jackhammer versus a 5 tonne ex leaning on a hyd hammer.
Duck versus tracks?
The main advantage of the duck is that it can be driven from site to site but their disadvantage is they only tend to come in bigger sizes and are not as maneuverable as track machines, trying to straddle a trench with a duck is awkward.
If you are going the track ex route you have to consider size, firstly it has to be able to load/unload into your truck. It has to have the digging depth and the power to do the job in the conditions you work in. They make a staggered teeth bucket for machines these days which increase the digging power in tough conditions.
Basically it is a matter of sitting down and working out the pro and cons of each set up, have a look around at prices for machines, you may be able to pick up a good used ex with hammer and a selection of buckets for not much money but backhoes are pretty cheap if you don't mind an older machine.
Ohh and you'll want this to stick on the ex http://www.digbits.co.uk/excavator_attachments.htm#boom_broom

Yeah I feel like I did a lot of that working out pros and cons today. It seems like just buying a good used backhoe and a skid steer would be my best route. Im aiming to buy the skidsteer mid next year, and if things go really well maybe I could pick up a backhoe too, but I things would have to go amazingly well lol.

Once again I really appreciate the advice from everyone, its a huge help to me.

By the way, do people use 12 inch buckets with excavators? If so that would be really nice.

stock · Nov 22, 2009

As for digging crossing lawns a track will beat the snot out of a back hoe any day.Oversaw a job recently for a buddy where they had to dig across a lawn one very wet Saturday when they finished they relaid the turf and the damage was minimal,hand on heart a rubber tyred digger would have made a holy mess of the place. IMHO

Aliate · Nov 23, 2009

stock said:
As for digging crossing lawns a track will beat the snot out of a back hoe any day.Oversaw a job recently for a buddy where they had to dig across a lawn one very wet Saturday when they finished they relaid the turf and the damage was minimal,hand on heart a rubber tyred digger would have made a holy mess of the place. IMHO

really, I would have thought it was the other way around, I guess the stabilizers really can make a mess of things. If I were going to buy an excavator I would buy a wheeled one though as after a year and a half I have yet to dig in anything but the street.

bluntman410g · Nov 23, 2009

Aliate said:
The 322 is actually a 25t machine. Sometimes I am running into 15 inch thick asphalt on top of 10 inches of concrete, but on average Im hitting 12 inches of asphalt going across city streets. Ive had a lot of hard jobs this year thats why I want something with plenty of power. The best digging I had was literally through bricks. They demolished a building then paved on top of it, so I was digging through brick, tiles, pieces of steel pipe etc. It was almost comical.

I thought about it a lot today and its hard to shy away from a good backhoe because I might start with the house services to ease my way into the main line work, and I think it would be easier using a backhoe on someones lawn than an excavator. I can also pick up a good case 590 for 50,000, I think I would be hard pressed to find a good wheel excavator for that price, unless Im wrong.

And yeah you are right about that blade it would help a lot.

Yeah I feel like I did a lot of that working out pros and cons today. It seems like just buying a good used backhoe and a skid steer would be my best route. Im aiming to buy the skidsteer mid next year, and if things go really well maybe I could pick up a backhoe too, but I things would have to go amazingly well lol.

Once again I really appreciate the advice from everyone, its a huge help to me.

By the way, do people use 12 inch buckets with excavators? If so that would be really nice.

i use a 12inch, 14inch, and a 24inch buckets on my mini excavator and 12 and 24 on my backhoe pretty slick when you are diggin around utilities :drinkup

Aliate · Nov 23, 2009

bluntman410g said:
i use a 12inch, 14inch, and a 24inch buckets on my mini excavator and 12 and 24 on my backhoe pretty slick when you are diggin around utilities :drinkup

can you put a 12 inch bucket on a full size excavator though? I normally use a 6 inch and 12 inch on my backhoe

Red Bank · Nov 23, 2009

Aliate said:
really, I would have thought it was the other way around, I guess the stabilizers really can make a mess of things. If I were going to buy an excavator I would buy a wheeled one though as after a year and a half I have yet to dig in anything but the street.

It is not really the stabilizers that make the mess, it is all about ground pressure. The tracks will ride right across, the tires on the backhoe with the weight will cause it to sink if the soil conditions are wet.

New company, general questions....(pics)

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