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Cat m wreck

Tracksoup71

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Mar 25, 2009
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24
Location
Fairbanks, AK.
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Equipment Operator and forman at an open pit Gold
Well, if you had the lever in the middle, you might want to wear a cup, incase you go off a bridge...LOL:D:drinkup
 

sdPete

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Oct 2, 2007
Messages
49
Location
South Dakota
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cannotpost
Skeedsteers and loaders are not 25 Tons machines moving up to 35 mph in a traffic. :eek:
This thread started after M-Series road accident. We are talking about safety issue here. In some markets we can possibly educate and train new operators. This is what Cat is desperately trying through the simulator, manuals, etc. The truth is that the operators are changing, so there will always be joystick-untrained and potentially hazardous operators. Trust me, you do not want to be on the same road with them in your family car.
Any machine operation should be intuitive and not require steep learning curve. I highly respect Cat but this time they are arrogantly trying to shove to the customers something that the majority do not want.

DESPARATELY???........ARROGANTLY?????

The people you work with must be vastly different than the people I work with. Those terms do not apply here.

As far as the INTUITIVE comment, you sit on that seat and get the machine moving, your left hand will learn to move that stick and steer the machine, intuition will develop right away. There is no alternative. Technique takes a while to develop. Steering wheel operators do not understand the advantage of joystick rapid steering response.

The city of Sioux Falls, SD, leased 24 140M units for winter snow removal. If you don't want to encounter a joystick machine on the street with your family car, stay out of that city. Myself, I had opportunity to drive alongside a machine a couple times in my family car one evening, the driver was motoring along just fine with no problems that I could see, going straight without weaving around at about 12 MPH, traffic moving past the machine. The normal flashing warning lights were in use, there was nothing unusual to warn the motoring public that this was a dangerous joystick operated machine.


I am going to speculate big time here. Joystick steering is a step in the conversion to electronic automation, with computer control coming next. You don't believe me look at the agriculture equipment market, autosteer is gaining converts and market activity rapidly. Head the machine down the field, click the button, hands off the wheel, beeper goes off as the end row is approached, grab the wheel turn it around, click the button again. This is going on right now, commercially produced, it works, the farmers that have it won't give it up. A grader running straight stretches looks to me like a logical candidate for automated steering, CAT has the electronic valve in production and now see what comes next. Again, I am speculating, I have read nothing that says CAT will do this, but they are in the ag equipment market and I doubt the engineers are ignorant. Commercial sprayers run upwards of 15 MPH going down 30 inch rows with 18 inch tires, autosteer has a vital ability to keep the machine from running down the crop, especially at night. CAT dealers sell these units. Remember, again, I am speculating, maybe someone can offer info to shed more light on the topic.

Steering wheels are so universal that people lose their ability to think of anything else. Around the farm here I run a skidloader which steers hydrostatically with two levers, an old Hesston windrower which steers using two levers which run V belt pulleys on movable arms, an assortment of machines with steering wheels, a 4 wheel ATV with handlebars, and the township grader with a joystick. They all work, everything has its unique characteristics. If you think a steering wheel is the only way to get the job done, leave the other machines alone and do it your way.
 
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JDOFMEMI

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Jan 3, 2007
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3,074
Location
SoCal
sdPete

You got it there.

Everytime there is a leap forward in tedchnology, there are a minority of hard headed folks who are stuck on the old way, and to them the new way will never work.
Look at the swith from cable operated blades on dozers to hydraulic. The naysayers said it would never work right, hydraulics drift, no power, leaky, and a host of other complaints. We are almost totally hydraulic in spite of the critics.
Same way with loading shovels. They could never advance. Same with automatic transmissions instead of manual in anything, cars, trucks, equipment. I especially remember another very controversial move by Cat when they introduced the high track crawlers. It was said they would loose all their dozer customers, it was unstable on a slope, it would never last, etc. They seem to dominate the dozer market now, and I suspect they will continue to dominate the grader market, although they have some quality competition there from Deere and Volvo.

We already have graders with grade control, so it is not a large leap to think that they will soon have auto steer as well, for cutting highway grade, as well as large mining haul roads and other applications as well. As sdPete pointed out, Ag already has it, and for several years now. Farms get more efficient because of it. Less wasted fertiliser, less wasted tillage effort, because overlap can be eliminated, without leaving gaps.

I have a good friend who is in his 60's, and he recently got hired to run a 140M. He called me and was very nervous about it. I eased his worries, and he went ahead. I talked to him the first day, and he struggled the first few hours, but then picked it up. A couple of weeks later, he told me he ends up roading 30+ miles almost every day, and mostly on public 2 lane roads, and he has no steering issues. He did say its best to lock out the blade functions when roading though, so you do not inadvertently raise or lower the left end while steering.

It is just like anything else new, you have to take the time to get the feel for it before moving into a high risk situation, like plowing in traffic or something. You would not take a dozer operator, who had never ran a grader, and send him down the public street without some time in an isolated area to learn the machine. Same goes with the new control style on the M, and available on JD and Volvo as well. Take the time to learn the machine first, before judging it harshly.

Just look at all the machines without steering wheels, and you can see they are not the only way to get the job done.
 
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Tracksoup71

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Mar 25, 2009
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Location
Fairbanks, AK.
Occupation
Equipment Operator and forman at an open pit Gold
Well said, sdPete and JDOFMEMI. When we received our 16M, the CAT rep. said that the main reason for joystick controls in the grader is that they are slowly gearing everything towards remote computer operation. Even our Hitachi 5500 shovel is all electronic over hydraulic. The joysticks no longer run small linkages to hydraulic valves to operate the machine. The joysticks sit on circuit boards and they tell the computer of the machine what function the operator wants. This is the way technology is forcing the future, no matter if we like it or not. Personally, I like the challenge of learning to operate anything, old or new.
 

MadMax

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Mar 10, 2009
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Rural NE Iowa
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Motorgrader Operator
We just had a used 140 dropped off yesterday. Naturally the salesman was along to complete the sales and go through all the hoopla involved. We've had a friendly feud going on about how great he thinks "his" kitties are compaired to my Deere for some time. ...short verson about the M is (I was told) Operator error. The machines blade snagged the bridge and momentum shoved it over.
 

Finish Blademan

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May 27, 2009
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Belton,Texas
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Sitework superintendent for Wolff Construction. ww
I don`t know about other folks,but I slow way down when I get near any structure especially when I have my mouldboard down working near buildings (bridges are structures in my book)
I do not like these M blades.I watched a kid running an m on a job next to mine at SouthWest University in Georgetown,Texas.
I am sure some of it was being green and young but he was in a finish operators place and was unable to edge curb for asphalt to save his rear.His work was horrible looking and he looked to me as if he was fighting his machine the whole while.
We paved out the parking lot we had and he was still fighting with his???
 

AtlasRob

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........ ...short verson about the M is (I was told) Operator error. The machines blade snagged the bridge and momentum shoved it over.

Without reading the whole thread again ;) I am pretty certain that was the assumption that many came to, ... thanks for an off the record ;) update.

The unanswered question, .....would it have happened with a steering wheel?
:popcorn
 

Grader4me

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Jan 11, 2006
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New Brunswick, Canada
Without reading the whole thread again ;) I am pretty certain that was the assumption that many came to, ... thanks for an off the record ;) update.

The unanswered question, .....would it have happened with a steering wheel?
:popcorn


Good question, but I think if he had of been going slower he would have had better control. With a bridge like that the best way to approch it is going very slow. My intial thoughts and comments was that the blade caught and dumped him over the side, so I'm thinking that with a steering wheel the same thing would have happened.
If he had been just creeping along when entering the bridge and did catch it with the blade, it probably wouldn't have thrown the machine. Just my 02 cents
 

JDOFMEMI

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....

The unanswered question, .....would it have happened with a steering wheel?
:popcorn

For that question, I say that a steering wheel, or lack of one, will not cause a wreck unless the mechanism fails to operate as intended.

An operator of any machine should not operate it at a speed he can't control. If it is a new system, like the "M" series, you should not go full tilt up the road with it untill you are comfortable enough to control it properly.

Technology will constantly change, and it is up to the individual to learn to control the machine properly.

If the operator was going accross the bridge faster than he could control the machine, it is not the machines fault. If the same accident happened on a conventional machine, there would be no controversy, just a resounding judjement of the operator going too fast for the conditions.

I believe someone with a new machine has the responsibility to take it easy until he is comfortable enough with it to maintain control in the conditions he is in.

Just my 2 cents worth
 

Greg

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Jan 28, 2008
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Excavating Contractor
So much for the old line about a Cat always lands on its feet. I like joy sticks in an escavator and a skid steer but in a grader I think it goes a bit far.
 

g-man

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Jul 24, 2009
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hamburg
Hey Greg my thinking at first was kinda like yours, a joystick in a grader is a bit much till I got on one. I had run graders for years and didn't think a joystick would ever work very good but I have to say I was very impressed with the ease of operation. I think it's just the operator plain and simple. I see operators in excavators that have to fight to maintain control. Is that the machines fault?
I've been a diesel mechanic for over 20 years and I've seen technology come a long ways. I think Cat is on the right track with the joysticks just need to work out the bugs a little. I do think they should have left the steering wheel as an option instead of doing away with it completly though.
 

Greg

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Long way yes. Wheel as an option probably would have been a good idea just like the option for differential steer or regular hand controls on a dozer. Like you, my age is showing here a bit too, and yes there are some guys out there that should not be allowed to operate anything more high tech than a shovel. As for technology, I think it is out of control. My phone has 63 features, or there abouts, that I don't want, don't use and could get along fine without. My digital camera is the same way. Unfortunately you can't buy anything anymore that some computer "wennie" hasn't gone crazy with. I also think that it is nuts that Cat builds machines where the operator can program in his personnel settings as to how he wants the controls to react. Same thing with cars, trucks and everything else with a computer chip in it. Now the problem becomes "when the computer goes down" even if there was a way to make a machine function without it the machinery drivers that are being turned out today couldn't operate it if they had too.
 

AtlasRob

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The unanswered question, .....would it have happened with a steering wheel?

........... My intial thoughts and comments was that the blade caught and dumped him over the side, so I'm thinking that with a steering wheel the same thing would have happened............

....................An operator of any machine should not operate it at a speed he can't control. ............. you should not go full tilt up the road with it untill you are comfortable enough to control it properly...............

I believe someone with a new machine has the responsibility to take it easy until he is comfortable enough with it to maintain control in the conditions he is in.

:yup very well put by you both :notworthy I have to agree 100%
 

tripper_174

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Jul 22, 2009
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173
Location
Manitoba, Canada
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Heavy Equipment Operator Trainer
training

We just got our first 16M at my work. I had to train myself on it and then train operators off of each crew on it. It is one tricky machine. With so many functions attached to one lever, it's easy to do too much. The only blade controls on the left steer stick are your up and down for that side of your blade. the rest of your blade controls are on the right stick. The left stick mostly controls the transmission, articulation and steering. The steering on these things are very responsive. for every inch of stick movement you get 10 degrees of wheel turn. When you bring the steer stick back to center, the wheels come with it just as fast as you move the stick. It is easy to over compensate and over correct the steering on these machines. If the operator on this blade was adjusting the left side of the blade and accidently move the steering, his automatic reaction would probably have been to counter steer, and if done too quickly and over react, it can send you into a ditch (or over a bridge ) pretty easily. With these machines, to learn "machine control" is a mis-leading statement. "Self control" should be your main focus. If on operator relies on his/her own reaction instead of pre-action, with the M model blades, not only will he/she never be a good operator on it but could be quite dangerous to be around when he/she is on it. When training our operators, I required atleast a 12 hour shift out of traffic and in plenty of room to work before sending them into normal operating conditions. Tracksoup71

I have been training both old and new grader operators on the M Series Graders. I've got to agree with Tracksoup71 that people need at least 12 hours of operating time in a wide open space to get used to the machine. The real problems start in an emergency situation where your instincts take over. It's pretty easy to panic and do anything but the right thing with the steering control!

I was like a lot of guys on this sight who are not impressed with the idea of joysticks but after operating them for a while I really got to like them. As one fellow said, the forward vision isn't very good. The idea of a steering wheel for roading seems like a real good one. Articulating the machine slightly seems to make it a little more controlable. In any event, I guess we'd better get used to the idea as I don't see Cat going back. All kids these days get joystick training with their video games and they are the operators of the future.
 

GPSGrader

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Sep 23, 2007
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Georgia
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Grade Foreman/Operator - 95% Motor Grader
Background information: I've put 3,000 hrs. on my 12M. I'd say that's long enough to "know" a machine pretty well. 10,000 hrs. experience on traditional Caterpillar G & H motor graders before the 12M.

By now I feel confident enough with the M to use it for just about anything that can be done with a grader. The steering is by far my biggest problem with the machine. However, as with any machine, an operator must always pay close attention to movement of controls. I have to be careful not to accidentally move the steering function. It's EASY to do if you're not a very precise operator- Just watch someone's first time on one! When I get back on a H, which I prefer, I don't have to WORRY about this issue. SO, in my experience, a M grader IS equally capable of maintaing control, but has greater potential for error and disaster due to human error.

Maybe a solution is limiting available gears for new operators. It can be done in the cab. I'd say at least for gears 6, 7, & 8, an operator should have 50 hrs. experience minimum, maybe more. Just depends on the operator... but it's still a large machine that can KILL someone around or in the tractor!
 

smoothoperator

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Jan 5, 2007
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Location
North Dakota USA
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County and township maintenance and snow removal,
I just completed my first 100 hours in my 140M AWD. I agree with most that the steering seems to be the last thing you get comfortable with. When you train yourself to relax, and avoid the tendency to over correct, everything goes much smoother. I had a demo M in the fall of '07, and from that point on I knew what I wanted. After 12,000 hours in a 140G, and 14,000 in a 143H, I wasn't sure what Cat could change to make their machines any better. I was VERY surprised with what they did. After spending 26 years with 12 control levers in front of you, it is going to take awhile for me to get completely comfortable with the the joysticks and optional control pods, but when I do, I can see my job getting easier (not a bad word) and more productive. My M has a rear ripper and front plow/dozer lift, and seems to be a very solid and stable work platform. The G and H were similarly equipped, and at the time were (and still are) great machines to operate. I used to dream about blading with the G and H, but my mind is not comfortable enough, yet, to dream about blading with the M. Strange? Give me a year with the sticks, and we'll see what happens.
 

activeorpassive

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Feb 9, 2007
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70
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Illinois
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Electrical/Electronics Instructor for Big Yellow (
Skeedsteers and loaders are not 25 Tons machines moving up to 35 mph in a traffic. :eek:
I highly respect Cat but this time they are arrogantly trying to shove to the customers something that the majority do not want.

I'm glad that you've performed extensive market research to know what the majority does and does not want. Please post this survey/research so that we can all be persuaded by your argument.

If the "majority" you write of are other operators/techs/coffee buddies in your immediate vicinity, then you should state so. To generalize your majority as THE majority is to say that you've done more voice of the customer research than Cat and is grossly unjust.

I can understand that you don't like or agree with joystick steering. That point has been made loud and clear. But you don't truly know what the majority wants any more than I do.
 
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