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Tiltrotators and Today's Marketplace

Eddiebackblade

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 4, 2008
Messages
227
Location
England
I really despair at people charging these crazy rates, but if it gets them through the current crisis whilst providing for them and their dependants then best of luck to them.
Back to the Engon and trying to shave a few pounds off the deal, what does anyone think about direct mounting the unit as opposed to having a quick hitch at the top and bottom.
Do users actually remove the unit often? and what are the usual reasons?
I guess fitting a hammer for a long period or particularily heavy digging would be a couple, but what else would you remove the tiltrotator for or do you leave it on all the time?
 

ZTS Plant

Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2009
Messages
12
Location
Scotland
Sounds like desperation or ignorance.....:pointhead

If I was completely out of work, I would do a very small job (i.e. a day's work) for a rediculus price if I thought I could get more work out of the company once they saw what I could do.:D

It never worked out very well. :Banghead

I had a guy who tried this on me only 3 weeks ago!!!!! He came onto site £6.50 an hour below me!!!:beatsme I off hired my machine and left it on site, he lasted two days on the job, they begged me to come back! So it was time for a little renegotiation and I got an extra pound an hour and a two day standing rate!! It was cheaper for them than paying the transport off site and transport back! Everyone's a winner!!! The driver was only to happy to cut silage for two days. It's been a long job!!:rolleyes: It's always handy to work out what it would cost them before you go into a meeting like this because they will have!!!!
 

ZTS Plant

Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2009
Messages
12
Location
Scotland
I really despair at people charging these crazy rates, but if it gets them through the current crisis whilst providing for them and their dependants then best of luck to them.
Back to the Engon and trying to shave a few pounds off the deal, what does anyone think about direct mounting the unit as opposed to having a quick hitch at the top and bottom.
Do users actually remove the unit often? and what are the usual reasons?
I guess fitting a hammer for a long period or particularily heavy digging would be a couple, but what else would you remove the tiltrotator for or do you leave it on all the time?

Eddie I've had both direct mount and Quick hitch options and quickly realised quick hitch was the way to go! If you are on a heavy dig you don't want the engcon on! You don't want it on when you have a hammer on either! If you check the price of both you will find there is very little price between the two! Also if you go to change the tiltrotator you only change the unit not the quick hitch or the buckets! Plus the direct mount is only made for your machine and no other, eg: a direct mount engcon for a volvo 140 will not fit a js130 - so if you try to resell the engcon you need a volvo 140 customer - cuts your market down drasticly! I also have two machines that have the same quick hitch and both are installed for engcon, I can share the tiltrotator between the two machines - I hope this makes sense!:)
 

Hendrik

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2009
Messages
1,232
Location
Adelaide South Australia
If I was completely out of work, I would do a very small job (i.e. a day's work) for a rediculus price if I thought I could get more work out of the company once they saw what I could do.:D

It never worked out very well. :Banghead
The problem with that is that if you come out for a ridicules price then the company will expect you to work for that sort of money every time. I suppose you can try and tell them that it was a special introductory price but..........
 

RoadDoc

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2008
Messages
120
Location
Kentucky
The problem with that is that if you come out for a ridicules price then the company will expect you to work for that sort of money every time. I suppose you can try and tell them that it was a special introductory price but..........

I was always sure they knew my regular rates before I agreed to cut my own throat. :eek:

I only did it with a couple of large companies that, if it worked out, I would have been set with work for several years at the minimum, I thought. As it turned out, they were happy with my business model and the quality of my work. I just didn't have access to enough capital to "run with the big dogs." I was too small for the majority of the jobs they offered me and they stopped calling....:ban It just wasn't meant to be at the time.

Having looked back at those incidents, I realize I was desperate. I had my first new machine (complete with a healthy payment every month) and the market had just bottomed out after 9-11-01. I had lost my biggest and best paying customer the following Jan. He went from building 33 homes a month every month for years to zero by Christmas. I took delivery of my new payment the week before the tragedy.... Ended up augering in hard. :pointhead Still digging my way out.

Times right now feel a lot like then, gentlemen. Again, I have the deepest respect for those of you who are still managing to get it done every day. You give me hope. :notworthy
 
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RoadDoc

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2008
Messages
120
Location
Kentucky
Eddie:

Eddie I've had both direct mount and Quick hitch options and quickly realised quick hitch was the way to go! If you are on a heavy dig you don't want the engcon on! You don't want it on when you have a hammer on either! If you check the price of both you will find there is very little price between the two! Also if you go to change the tiltrotator you only change the unit not the quick hitch or the buckets! Plus the direct mount is only made for your machine and no other, eg: a direct mount engcon for a volvo 140 will not fit a js130 - so if you try to resell the engcon you need a volvo 140 customer - cuts your market down drasticly! I also have two machines that have the same quick hitch and both are installed for engcon, I can share the tiltrotator between the two machines - I hope this makes sense!:)

If was my money, ZTS is making a lot of sense.....:my2c
 

RoadDoc

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2008
Messages
120
Location
Kentucky
AtlasRob....Where are you!

Gentlemen:

After badgering the great one... :notworthy(AltlasRob, of course):notworthy I have been promised pictures of his current projects if I would merely request said pictures in one of my threads....... :D Let me do my best.... ;)

:eek: !AtlasRob!, Sir. Please hijack my thread! I want some bloody pictures, I want them now. :eek:

Please and Thank You and all of that Polite Stuff........:cool2
 

AtlasRob

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2008
Messages
1,982
Location
West Sussex UK
Occupation
owner operator
Please hijack my thread! I want some bloody pictures, I want them now.

:lmao :falldownlaugh

That wasnt the deal at all :D I did say that I must do a thread for the contract I am now on but it was difficult to know where to put it as its got ADT's, dozer, cranes, hiab the 953 and ME ;) ........but I'll sort something out.

What I need to confess is I have ordered a Geith "Claw" fully auto hitch for the duck to replace my semi auto Miller hitch. £2100 :mad:

Initially I was told that the contractor I am on hire to had banned the semi hitches 3 months ago :eek: nobody else could confirm this but the contract safety bod was adamant and wanted me off site, this information turned out to be incorrect and I have spent money that could have bought me more beer :Banghead

The tilty makers still cannot get clarification from the 2 main contractors in the UK that have banned semi and 1st generation fully automatic hitches,
( Skanska from 1st Nov 2009 and Bovis Lend Lease from 1st Jan 2010 ) as to whether this will include them, if the manufacturers cant get clarification what in hells name chance do I stand of getting a straight answer :beatsme

In this situation I have gone with the Geith as I can see it becoming the norm by the end of next year anyway. In the mean time if the hire for a chain trencher and a tilty to mount it on becomes a reality I can review the situation at that time.

The new hitch actually arrived last week and I thought I would get away with a quick changeover but no chance. :bash
Miller use a 4 port metric threaded valve and Geith use a 5 port imperial threaded valve so all the pipework is going to have to be changed and another T fitted. Not a disaster but not a midweek afterwork evening job either. This weekend was already allocated and next weekend is also a bit busy at the moment so it will have to wait.

I could send it back I suppose and tell um it was all a mistake :D

OK, as you asked nicely heres a pic or three

cabin 043.jpg

You want 6 cu metres of concrete in there, Jeez its a duck not a ruddy tower crane.

cabin 051.jpg

Do what you gotta do, just get it in there.
Lucky we have some big crane mats on site so I built myself a platform.
With the bucket kept on and the longer chains I could just about get enough reach to save the use of wheelbarrows.

Being UK it rained just as I started to climb up which added to the fun.

There are 4 mats, one lengthways at the bottom then two crossover on top and on to the batter and the forth to give me a step.
I could not bench the batter as somebody buried a load of comms ducts and drainage pipework in there just last week.......... who?........... ME of course.

cabin 050.jpg

From a distance for perspective, or reflective or what ever * tive.
cabin 049.jpg
 

RoadDoc

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2008
Messages
120
Location
Kentucky
Thank You!

:D You are ever the gentleman, sir. Thank you for the pics, they're great. :notworthy

Crane mats... always handy to have around. Owners complain about the cost and trouble to move them around but, when you need one.... Nice thing about being in your position, since they know your skill and trust you to be able to "make it happen", they actually let you do things to make the job easier and more efficient for them. Thus, you get to stretch you brain cells and skills a bit. Probably makes the job a little more interesting. Lucky devil ;)

You said this was the project compound? Is all of that office space or sleeping quarters or what. Must be a really big job coming up! Nice work.

How about starting that thread in the general industry section. Kind of a state of the work that's out there sort of thing... Just a thought. Would be easier for you and keep the line of thought from fragmenting.

Thanks again, and don't think these few pictures will satisfy. Keep 'em coming, boss! :usa
 
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AtlasRob

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2008
Messages
1,982
Location
West Sussex UK
Occupation
owner operator

Goebbels

New Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2008
Messages
3
Location
Finland
Occupation
Excavator operator
More on tiltrotators..

Hi there folks!

I'm a newbie on the forum and since wanted to (test) post a reply to this thread as it's close to things in my everyday work.

Here in Finland we have almost the same situation with rotators as in Sweden - Nearly every contractor have them and it's not easy to get to the site without.

I've been using them last six years and couldn't live without anymore.

As you can see in the picture, they fit nicely even to machines in 250-300 class and even transportation height becomes lower with one on compared to pin-on-bucket...

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=2108950&l=89de223bbe&id=613199411
 

RoadDoc

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2008
Messages
120
Location
Kentucky
Welcome to the forum, Goebbels! :usa

Thanks for the picture. That is really impressive. Do you have to be careful when using a machine with that much power or does the tiltrotator have the strength to take the strain?
 

JDOFMEMI

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2007
Messages
3,074
Location
SoCal
Well, that would attract some looks around here while going down the road.

Looks like a pretty neat thing to have for site work and utility work.

Don't see much reason for it in mass excavation though.
 

Goebbels

New Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2008
Messages
3
Location
Finland
Occupation
Excavator operator
Do you have to be careful when using a machine with that much power or does the tiltrotator have the strength to take the strain?

The tiltrotator can take quite a lot of strain, but still you have to be careful and keep in mind what you are doing with it. None of the three t/rots i've mainly been using last years has broke up mechanically. There's been some oil leaks and normal wearing out but nothing dramatically. I've seen a Rototilt torn to two pieces some times though.

Still the rot's not any good on mass excavating or hammer purposes, i remove mine always before doing such. Otherwise it's mostly a matter of your imagination to figure out jobs you can do with t/rot - so remember to order them with a QC.
 

AtlasRob

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2008
Messages
1,982
Location
West Sussex UK
Occupation
owner operator
You said this was the project compound? Is all of that office space or sleeping quarters or what. Must be a really big job

Hi Doc, yes this is only the compound, the offices are as stated with a caravan site for the rifraff :D

The H of the offices has 17 units each side with 6 in the middle plus 2 in a corner whiich are the canteen. Then there is an 8 unit visitor/education centre, 6 unit welfare block and a 3 unit stores. Grand total of 59 :beatsme

The tiltrotator can take quite a lot of strain, but still you have to be careful and keep in mind what you are doing with it. None of the three t/rots i've mainly been using last years has broke up mechanically. There's been some oil leaks and normal wearing out but nothing dramatically. I've seen a Rototilt torn to two pieces some times though.

Great info and a wicked picture :notworthy, welcome aboard. :drinkup
 

ZX330

Banned
Joined
Dec 4, 2009
Messages
4
Location
California
I just recently saw one up close for the first time at a demonstration, I was impressed. Only when you see it in action can you truely realize it's potential. There is no doubt in my mind I can save time, money, labor cost, etc...

YouTube - engconDigPro SLC material placement

Anybody have a tiltrotator?

YouTube - engconDigPro SLC material placement I'm sure there are others out there besides this brand... Just an example.

Do you like it?

Does it make you more money?

Does it save labor cost / speed up production?



I think it would be really great to have one of these attachments. But, as AtlasRob has clearly demonstrated in this quote, the things are extremely expensive....:eek: I'm sure the cost will mitigate in time with competition and market growth, however, they are rather complex and will probably always be somewhat expensive.

From my web surfing, I see tiltrotators have really become a necessity to compete in some European markets. What I have seen also indicates that they would have their place with anyone working on a restrictive utility job or urban site. Looks awesome when working around existing utilities!

I know things work different in Europe than here in the U.S. I don't know much about their labor laws. I have gathered from people with experience in other industries there that it is a little more regulated or stringent. That may justify the cost of such a flexible and expensive attachment, I don't know. :beatsme

I can't speak for AtlasRob but, I recall him mentioning it is hard to get customers in his market to pay extra for more flexible attachments in the plant hire business. I feel safe in assuming the same would be even more true here in the U.S. In my opinion, we tend to have more room to work and the jobs tend to be larger in size and scope.

What I do see is that contracts (at least in federal highway maintenance work) are being written with ever shorter work windows and larger penalties for not getting off the road in time. Not to mention the A + B bids that I am seeing more of where your hard bid has a time element that attaches bonus / penalty factors to the contract based on the number of days you say it will take to complete the work. Lettings are so eratic now that a contractor must be very flexible as to the type of work he does if he wants to have work to bid on at all. For example, Georgia has only four or five jobs in this month's D.O.T. letting (normally many more than that). Kentucky canceled one of its lettings this year.

Things are changing fast for the smaller contractors. Instead of focusing on only grading/pipe a contractor may by necessity have to look at demo., landscaping or clearing to stay in business this quarter. I can see a need for the flexiblilty a tiltrotator could bring a smaller company that doesn't have miles of road to build or many thousands of feet of pipe to lay every day. Today he may be called upon to replace lead water service pipes in a city street and tomorrow he may have to do emergency storm debris removal.... I know everyone is already doing this to some extent. What is the cost, though? Do you make up for it with more labor? Does it make sense to have to rent different equipment for every job? Do you really want to own that many diversified pieces of equipment? If not, how do you build equity? How do you train and retrain all of that extra labor every day without losing time and money to the learning curves? Can you even find help capable of dealing with the daily changes without sacraficing safety? :pointhead

Sorry to rant/ramble on so over an equipment attachment. :eek: I just have a ton of respect for you folks out there that are getting it done everyday. I don't know how you're making any money when things are changing so fast all around you. My hat's off to all of you! :notworthy You deserve the best tools to work with every day. :bash
 

blueman

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 3, 2009
Messages
45
Location
NC
In North America these show up mostly on wheeled excavators but they are starting to show up on crawlers too.
The cost is up there for sure, but don't forget they usually include a quick coupler (quickfit) on the bottom side, so you get that extra functionality for the price. Most common attachments are grading buckets, grapples and forks.
 

ZX330

Banned
Joined
Dec 4, 2009
Messages
4
Location
California
In North America these show up mostly on wheeled excavators but they are starting to show up on crawlers too.
The cost is up there for sure, but don't forget they usually include a quick coupler (quickfit) on the bottom side, so you get that extra functionality for the price. Most common attachments are grading buckets, grapples and forks.

Blueman
My friend who lives and works out in New Mexico just got an engcon EC05 and Grading bucket for his Hitachi 50U tracked excavator delivered to him a couple of weeks ago. Picked it up through a local engcon delaer here in So. Cal.
http://s760.photobucket.com/albums/xx247/ZX330/TLC/?albumview=slideshow
 
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