Fill dirt "ethics"

I think it comes down to the individual situation, and the wording of the agreement between the contractor and the customer.

If you are doing a negotiated price project, and you have told the customer " dirt is going to cost X, trucking is Y, and handeling it when I get it here is Z" then later you find free fill, then a reduction is in order, though not all of it, as there is still costs in time, paperwork, and hassle in setting up this "free" dirt.

However, if it is a bid job, and you have contracted to complete the work for X, the owner was happy with that number, or you would not be doing the job in the first place, and if you do not want a bad name, do not tell what the dirt costs. Free dirt is figured into many bids, if it is known about in advance. It may be the cost reduction that gets you the job if you know of it, and your competition does not.

I would say that most of us that take the time to post on this forum have good intentions, but we are all in business to make money. If we don't, we will not get to stay in this business, or any other endeavor either.

Wow this has been an interesting, long running thread. I am not in the business, but I gotta say since purchasing a property that needed fill for a road .... I have learned the value of dirt.............it's like GOLD. I have begun to stockpile my own GOLD now. Taking FREE clean dirt, shale, concrete, asphalt grindings fellas ......PM me............lol


Auburn, PA...

The customer should always understand that the contractor is the front office. Prices are agreed upon between the contractor and the client. The contractor should be up front about what he is going to charge the client. The contractor should NEVER disclose what he has to pay. All that matters is that the client agrees to the price. If the client doesn´t like the price, the contractor doesn´t get the job. No ethics violations in either case.

None of this should be confused with lying to the customer about what your costs are. I think it´s a ridiculous practice. It´s none of the clients concern what the operating costs of the contractor are. The client shouldn´t pay extra if my machine needs an oil change while it´s running on their job today and they shouldn´t get a discount because I´m getting free fill tomorrow. My costs are my business. Their costs are their business.

My costs are my business. Their costs are their business.

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And if the average consumer knew the actual real cost of many of their consumer items, such as mobile phones etc...they'd have a heart attack.

If you give free fill to #1 customer, does the next customer not have the right to ask you for free fill? Keep the price at fair market value regardless if you got %100 savings. #1 customer agreed to purchase the fill.

Hendrik said:

And yes, if this fella was living in a big flash house with an expensive car and looked down on me like I was the dirt that I was shifting, I would have charged for every last grain of dirt even though I was getting it for free from my place.

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Thats just wrong, treat everyone the same or get out of business. We have been called to several 'higher end' jobs. We bid it and the customer is amazed; because everyone else was charging 200% more, Just because the customer was in a good neighborhood.

D5G said:

Thats just wrong, treat everyone the same or get out of business. We have been called to several 'higher end' jobs. We bid it and the customer is amazed; because everyone else was charging 200% more, Just because the customer was in a good neighborhood.

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So you are saying I should charge the same rate for a battler who has to have a tree stump removed because the council ordered him/her to as opposed to a toff living in a three storey mansion who wants to install a lap pool for his dogs?
In a perfect world perhaps but...........
Basically I figure that the rich person can afford to pay a bit more for my time, how do you think they got their money? By feeding off the poor as usual.
Don't get me wrong you are entitled to charge whatever you want, if a flat rate works for you then fine.
Although the funny thing is a battler is more likely to pay a higher rate than a wealthy person.

Yea, Hendrik, thats what I am saying. Its all in how your brought up and your morals... You go ahead and charge what ever you want, whenever you want. I'll agree to disagree.

Howdy guys, If I ask you for a price for backfill and we agree on a price, I don't care what you paid or didn't pay as long as it's what we made the deal on and it meets specs. I don't think that is so strange.

Thats just wrong, treat everyone the same or get out of business.

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So, are businesses wrong to offer things like the "senior citizen discount"? That cheats the rest of us, doesn't it? :cool2

:stirthepot (Yes, I'm just stirring the pot.)

My point is though, that it's all in how you look at it--the rich guy gets to pay retail price, and the less well off get a discount. Does looking at it that way make it more palatable?

D5G said:

Yea, Hendrik, thats what I am saying. Its all in how your brought up and your morals... You go ahead and charge what ever you want, whenever you want. I'll agree to disagree.

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Well Said!

How do you some of you guys feel if someone think just because you have some spendy equipment you must be rich and therefore should pay more for something.

BTW, I always considered a "senior discount" marketing

mudmaker said:

Well Said!

How do you some of you guys feel if someone think just because you have some spendy equipment you must be rich and therefore should pay more for something.

BTW, I always considered a "senior discount" marketing

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And what do you think dealers do when they know you need a part that only they can supply? Put the same mark up on it as stuff that is readily available?
I do actually think a big time operator should pay more for something than a little guy trying to make it against the big boys but that is not how it works.
I don't consider pensioner discounts a marketing gimmick but rather an acknowledgement of the fact that they are on a fixed 'wage' and don't buy dog food because they have a dog.

Hendrik said:

I do actually think a big time operator should pay more for something than a little guy trying to make it against the big boys but that is not how it works.

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Why do you want to punish success? It is easy to do if you are not the successful one, but does that make it right? It is better to strive to be more successful than to wish ill on the successful to make you feel better.

Do you think every successful business man or woman out there just walked into it. Most work more hours and risk more than anyone can dream of. If they have worked their tale off to get to a point where they can negotiate a better deal for goods and services who are you or anyone else to take that from them. It should give you incentive to go work your tale off to be more successful. Not complaining about the big guy getting a better deal!

mudmaker said:

Why do you want to punish success? It is easy to do if you are not the successful one, but does that make it right? It is better to strive to be more successful than to wish ill on the successful to make you feel better.

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I am making the point a bigger operation is better able to absorb higher input costs as an example that in the world things are not always equal.
I have nothing against success that is earned with hard work but often that is not the case, sometimes you need to know how to shake a hand the right way.
Anyway if you are happy to charge an 80 year old Lady who needs her sewer line replaced and comes out every half hour with drinks and snacks and keeps telling you how sorry she is to bother you, the same rate as a pair of yuppies who want their investment property landscaped to maximize their profit on sale and spend their time looking over your shoulder and telling you how to do your job, then you do that.
I can give you a nice little example, my mother had her septic tank overflow and called a couple of plumbers out to have a look. Both these professionals where able to tell without investigation that her septic needed replacement at a cost of ~$11,000.
So I said to her that I'd have a look because she is a pensioner and does not have a job and she is my mum. Sure she could have got money from the bank because she has a nice house and back then banks where still handing out money.
Anyway I start digging around and find that the overflow pipe was blocked with dirt. Half an hour with a hand shovel and the problem would have been fixed back to a workable state.
I like to do things well, so I put in a proper trench and gravel and so forth and being a soft so and so, I only charged her for my costs. Which worked out at 500 bucks. No I would not do that for anyone else except the person who gave birth to me but by the same token I would not charge someone 11 grand without fully exploring all alternatives.
Taking your view into consideration I should have charged my mother ~$2300 to properly fix her septic and no there is no cash discount.

Hendrik said:

I do actually think a big time operator should pay more for something than a little guy trying to make it against the big boys but that is not how it works.

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Are you joking? I'll admit some get to the top by taking advantage of others; but your getting quite sterotypical, don't you think? There are plently of big companies out there that started as a one man band, and in several generations have worked their way up to a 100 employee or better company. Whats the problem with that? They worked just as hard and harder than the little guy to get where they are. Everything should be equal, thats the way I see just about everything. Again its how I have been brought up. And again I will say, you are entitled to your opinion...and I agree to disagree.

Hendrik said:

Taking your view into consideration I should have charged my mother ~$2300 to properly fix her septic and no there is no cash discount.

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You have got to be kidding me. I wouldnt even charge my own mom the materials.

You are twisting what the original point was, charging someone more just because they live in a nice house. My point of senior discount as a marketing program was just to put it in perspective. It is no different than striving to have a reputation for treating people fair and honest. Everything we do in business revolves around marketing our goods and services.

For me if your mom would have hired me to tackle her septic problem she would have been pleasantly surprised to find it was a simple fix and a small cost. It is called being honest. It is hard to do too much troubleshooting on a free estimate. You kind of have to take what you can see, prepare for the worst and hope for the best. JMHO.

mudmaker said:

You have got to be kidding me. I wouldnt even charge my own mom the materials.

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Another point I was going to make, but didn't want to stir the pot, I agree I wouldn't have charged my mother anything either.

I like to do things well, so I put in a proper trench and gravel and so forth and being a soft so and so, I only charged her for my costs. Which worked out at 500 bucks. No I would not do that for anyone else except the person who gave birth to me

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Hendrik, you charged your mother?:beatsme

mudmaker said:

You have got to be kidding me. I wouldnt even charge my own mom the materials.

You are twisting what the original point was, charging someone more just because they live in a nice house. My point of senior discount as a marketing program was just to put it in perspective. It is no different than striving to have a reputation for treating people fair and honest. Everything we do in business revolves around marketing our goods and services.

For me if your mom would have hired me to tackle her septic problem she would have been pleasantly surprised to find it was a simple fix and a small cost. It is called being honest. It is hard to do too much troubleshooting on a free estimate. You kind of have to take what you can see, prepare for the worst and hope for the best. JMHO.

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Didn't someone tell me earlier that if I don't charge EVERYONE a flat rate I should not be in the industry? Ooooh there are exceptions to this golden rule, see I have so much to learn.
Now lets see, Mothers and Fathers don't get charged, what about siblings and other family members? How about the next door neighbour or your best mate?
I am so confused, what about if you are helping out a bunch of volunteers clear some weeds from a riverbank?
Far as my Mum's septic tank goes, it is kinda expected that a plumber investigate what the problem is and then charge for that diagnoses. Would you be happy if you took a machine to a workshop because the hydraulics feel sluggish. Mechanic tells you that you need a new hydraulic pump when in reality all it needs is a new filter.

CM1995 said:

Hendrik, you charged your mother?:beatsme

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She insisted that she pay me for the material used, it was either that or she was going to take the money to the casino. Actually originally she was going to pay me a grand but that got revised down after she didn't have a good night at the casino.
Evil places those casinos and are best avoided.