Union Question

I don't have any first hand experience except what I have seen on our jobs but I always wondered what the deal was with dividing lines so to speak? Around here it seems like operating engineers only touch the machine and never labor at all. In posts here it seems like union operators in other places do shovel sometimes etc. Is there a varience depending on the company on what each group can do or has to do? For example the paving company we use the roller operators are only about 25 years old and most of the laborers are about 45 and the operators will watch the laborers shovels for an hour and never flinch just sitting there. Just trying to understand the the union deal.

A union operator does'nt shovel because he takes away a job of a union laborer.

It varies from company to company. Bigger companies are less likely to have operators using a shovel just due to their size, smaller companies, everyone does everything. Im willing to bet, your roller operators were apprentices, and they know no better. I find that laborers are usually alright with you giving them a hand. But, office personal, and foremen are usually not, lets be honest, a operator makes a good bit more an hour than a laborer does.

The last time I got out to help a laborer was a giant pissing match. We were working at night, with a time deadline. We had to have everything cleaned up for the next morning. We were down to our last 20 feet of pipe. In that 20 feet we had a T a valve, and a hydrant to assemble. So we cut everything and once it was all fit together, i had nothing to do. So rather than sit on my rear, I joined my pipelayer in twisting bolts on the megalugs. His topman was busy finish up a few other tasks. I figured its wet, and cold, and we all want to go home. So I helped him out, he was alright with it. The company owner was not. A few days later I was sent packing, no real reason given other than "lack of work." Come to find out later he was a big believer in everyone has their job, thats what they do. Makes no sense to me, as we got out a half hour early, so he pocketed the extra wages he would have payed out if I would have sat there and watched the pipelayer assemble everything.

Sorry the pin head did not like you helping out, he might have gotten fined in the past. No the operator doesn't use a shovel. But operators tend to use a shovel or broom if they want to just help out.
If I tell the labor there is a pipe and he can't find it I just might bail out of the rig and find it my self. Every situation is different. But your an operator and not a lazy one, and that is something that is real good in this day and age.

Like most said, it depends on the company size and the scope of the work. Mom and Pop shops with a few employees you may see the operator using a shovel to help dig around a pipline or electical service just to expidite the job, but if there is alot of shovel work, the laborers will do it.

Likewise you may see a brickie outfit using a telehandler with a brickie running it. From my point of view, it burns me up. From the owners point of view, he's saving some money, allbeit only a few dollars as opposed to a fine or a picket, which would cost him more in the long run.

Most tradesmen know when they are crossing the line, in my experience, but are willing to help another trade out if they are asked.

kamerad47 said:

A union operator does'nt shovel because he takes away a job of a union laborer.

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Makes sense to me. But surprised to hear the equipment operators are all of 25. WOW, lucky guys to be up there so young.

Wolf said:

Makes sense to me. But surprised to hear the equipment operators are all of 25. WOW, lucky guys to be up there so young.

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Not so fast I was 25, 39 years ago. Local #3 Member

Wolf said:

Makes sense to me. But surprised to hear the equipment operators are all of 25. WOW, lucky guys to be up there so young.

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Thats pretty good, last I heard, 324s average age is 48 years old. This year we took 80 apprentices. Tough with the current economy, but its a double edge sword. If we dont take them, then we dont have enough journeymen in a few years. Then again, it doesnt look like we will have enough any way. To many of todays generation does not want to work. They want to be the top dog in an office. A sense of entitlement that has been handed to them by todays school system.

As for other trades running equipment. If they only need the machine for a few things a day, its not fair to a company to have a full time operator. All hes going to do is sit for hours on end and get paid for nothing. Great way to kill a business. Would you hire someone to work for 1 hour and get paid for 8? Now if that machine is moving all day, it should be an operator.

We have had problems in this area with a union pipe fitting outfit. We have a contract with them. Yet they figured they would save themselves a few dollars by using pipe fitters to run the equipment. Now will we get them based on the time studies, since they broke a contract.

The real way we need to combat this is getting with our brothers in other trades. They need to out and out refuse to run a machine. If its for short times, maybe we need to set something up where a guy can have a split ticket. Make him an operating engineer for say just forktrucks. He has dues taken out by IUOE for the hours spent on a machine. In return for the dues, he gets proper training on a piece of equipment, so safe operation is maintained.

Another point we need to make is liability issues, not only for a person running a machine, but the company that has a person operating that machine.

The problem usually hasn't been over an operator doing labor around here. I have seen and there have been so many turf wars over who gets to run the machine in this state that I know of few outfits that complain over an operator helping getting a job done on the ground.

Years ago we had some nuclear plants being built with three unions involved. Carpenters, Operating Engineers and Automotive Machinists. I was in the last and we were working on haul trucks. In those days the dealer wrenches trucks were little more than a pickup and couldn't carry the weight of a compressor and welder. We had torches and some hand tools. At any rate we needed to make a four inch weld on something and a welder was across the street. We inquired about using that machine and was asked which union we belonged to. We were informed that the machine was controlled by the carpenters and we would have to hire one to weld the piece for us. We had no way to bill that out and had to drive fourteen miles round trip to get a welder from our customer's shop.

Another issue came when the carpenters tried to extend their authority over the heavy lift cranes. Normally that would have been only operating engineers and they refused to cede their authority so a court battle ensued. Both unions shut down construction for about a year and a half on all the plants, running up the bill to untold millions. It finally got resolved but then the meltdown at Three Mile Island hit and the costs of redesign doomed all the reactor construction projects in this country.

That job ended up going broke and became the largest municipal bond failure in history to that point. I put the in fighting between the unions as the primary reason for that and resolved to never let mulitple unions into any business I was a part of.

Turbo21835 said:

The real way we need to combat this is getting with our brothers in other trades. They need to out and out refuse to run a machine. .

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You make a really good point regarding the unions. It is a union, after all, so you should work with your brothers in other trades. That is the ticket. Good thinking, Turbo 21835!

I dont mind helping out a good crew, (with their permission)or an old laborer, but be careful, cause next thing you know, they expect you to do it all, and all it does will make you old and tired, climbing in and out of the machine all day.



If the crew is a bunch of slackers, screw em.:Banghead
If the company is run by jagoffs, screw em.:usa

Quite honestly, most of the time I'm digging with a pipe crew, there isn't time enough to get out and help, you have enough to do with the hoe.

Turbo, back in 1970, you couldn't buy a membership in 324. You had to be born into the union. My brother got in, but his was a special deal he and the local worked out. I remember the union jobs around Saginaw then, you should have seen those old operators running the hard hitch 631A's and S24's. Their guts were hanging over their knees and many were wearing supports. Needless to say, the I-75 bypass wasn't built in a day with those guys.

In New Jersey, working on a emergency reservoir for PPL, 825 held sway and they ruled the roost. Just to move a light plant took 4 people in a medium flatbed truck. One Teamster to drive the truck. One Operating Engineer to start and stop the light
plant generator. One Electrician to flip the light switch on and off, and one Laborer to hook and unhook the light plant hitch to the truck. All the water pumps on the jobsite had their own Operating Engineer. The rock drills had an Operating Engineer and one Laborer. The Teamsters ran the parts trailer. I was supervision and as such, I could not pick up a shovel or a wrench lest I be time carded. I also could not tell any one Mechanic or Operator what to do. I had to tell the Operator Steward, or one of the three Master Mechanics what to do. They then told the others.

The union in Canada was the same way. You did not touch anyone else's work and there were strict rules laid out in the handbook about that. The Teamsters, Operating Engineers, and the 19 or so other unions at the US Steel works in Gary, Indiana were even worse.

I joined Local 9 in Colorado at age 33. I'd already been in the Teamster's and Carpenter's & Joiners. I signed up in Local 3 in California at age 49. I transferred that card to 428 in Arizona at age 59. I'm on a withdrawal now however.

I worked a job a year ago close to home that was a non-union project paying Davis-Bacon wages. Good money. The contractor is a double breasted outfit out of California. Every equipment operator on that job had a union card in their pocket from 428, 3, or 12. We could help out some with the laborers and the mechanics if we wanted or were able to, but we didn't have to. Depended on what crew you were on. Usually what happened if your rig went down was that you drove around with the foreman if it was late in the shift so you could get your 8 hours, or you went home. I didn't mind that in the least as I was just well enough to operate, but not in good enough shape to do anything else.

There is good and bad with these relationships everywhere, depending on how you are personally affected. I've been on every side of the fence there is. Most operators are in the same boat because you have to eat and keep the roof on over the family. You work non-union if you have to, but most would rather work union for the better pay and better benefits. But some folks do get a little carried away about it as I've outlined above. Every situation is different.

surfer-joe said:

Turbo, back in 1970, you couldn't buy a membership in 324. You had to be born into the union. My brother got in, but his was a special deal he and the local worked out. I remember the union jobs around Saginaw then, you should have seen those old operators running the hard hitch 631A's and S24's. Their guts were hanging over their knees and many were wearing supports. Needless to say, the I-75 bypass wasn't built in a day with those guys.

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Boy have times changed, yet certain things stay the same. Your right, its still darn near impossible to get in. I was lucky enough to find an outfit that hired me on as a journeyman. When I was signing up with the BA is was informed I was not well liked due to the way I was brought in. I had no family to bring me, tried to get in through the apprenticeship, couldnt get in, so I slid in the back door. Now when Im on the out of work list, the Dispatcher doesnt find much interest in helping me find work. Guess Im lucky in the fact that 324 is not a hiring hall. I can go find my own work.

Saginaw is no longer a union stronghold. It hasnt been for some time. When you have a regional hall in Freeland, and run 5-10 BAs thru it in 10 years, things tend to change. In that time, none of those BAs were able to negotiate new contracts with any companies. New Ba would work and work to convince guys at companies to stick up for themselves and each other, when they finally stood up, that BA was on his way out the door and left those guys with their necks out on the cutting board. Right now the Saginaw area is under a market recovery, and the areas wage is about $10 an hour less than Detroit.

Former Giants of the area or mere shells of what they used to be Bourdow Trucking may have 10 employees these days. Champagne and Marx has around 25. Beirlien is double breasted, with any work being done in Dow, Corning, or Hemlock Semi Conductor being non union. In fact, pretty much anything but big three work is non union for them.

I was a first uear apprentice in the operators last year and was doing laborer work half of the time.

"Operator Apprentice" translates to slave for the other trades.

Ironworkers, millrights carpenters, laborers, they will all stand around and smoke, and watch an Apprentice kill himself.

And then they don't miss a chance to tell the apprentice coordinator that you aren't worth a damn. LOlointhead

This is why I really cant stand the union. All this this beauricratic nonsence is exactly why the unions suck the life out of the tax system.

Being black balled because you wanted to help out is the most a**-backwards sence ive heard in a long time.

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biggixxerjim said:

This is why I really cant stand the union. All this this beauricratic nonsence is exactly why the unions suck the life out of the tax system.

Being black balled because you wanted to help out is the most a**-backwards sence ive heard in a long time.

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Please explain the tax system to all of us who may not know better.

Helping out and getting black balled because of it, example please.

Down with the unions,huh? Remember that next weekend or next time you hurt yourself on a job or need to take a leave of absence or your boss gives you some earplugs,saftey glasses or hard hat. Or you manage to snag some OT pay or your kid gets glasses, or you wife has a baby. Or you get to drink at the same fountain or your 10 year old doesn't die working in a coal mine, or your daughter doesn't have to do the bossman "favors" to keep her job, or you aren't gunned down in the street by some para-millitary clowns or your local police because you were using your 1st Ammendment rights. Be thankful you don't have to by all your stuff at the "company store". And live in "company housing" and live every waking moment in fear of losing your job because you choose to live your life as a free man with your own will and your dignity and brotherly love instead of fear and shame and having look over your shoulder to make sure the next guy isn't gonna take your job for less pay and longer hours and lower standards...

I could go on all day...down with that?:beatsme

We protect the very rights most people take for granted nowadays. No thanks needed, its not our job, it's our duty.:usa

I will tell you right now if this turns into another pro/con union thread it will be closed. I've had enough of this crap from both sides. Any further posts in that direction will earn the author a vacation.

I don't have any first hand experience except what I have seen on our jobs but I always wondered what the deal was with dividing lines so to speak? Around here it seems like operating engineers only touch the machine and never labor at all. In posts here it seems like union operators in other places do shovel sometimes etc. Is there a varience depending on the company on what each group can do or has to do? For example the paving company we use the roller operators are only about 25 years old and most of the laborers are about 45 and the operators will watch the laborers shovels for an hour and never flinch just sitting there. Just trying to understand the the union deal.

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Probably has more to do with SELF-RESPECT than anything else.

Different type of Atomos here.

I joke on about how I will file a Union dispute against a labourer for pulling wrenches but it's all in jest.

Sometime's I pull a Shovel from a Guy and get at her myself .. For instance .. Cleaning a swing hole in a shovel after a swing box has been pulled. I could stand back, Smoke and watch but it's my behind on the block if something fail's.

Being black balled because you wanted to help out.

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Yeah I could get into bother for allowing a labourer to pull wrenches or me digging out Black-Jack from a Black Hole.

Who's gonna Complain If I offer to climb in the Black hole for them?

surfer joe said:

In New Jersey, working on a emergency reservoir for PPL, 825 held sway and they ruled the roost. Just to move a light plant took 4 people in a medium flatbed truck. One Teamster to drive the truck. One Operating Engineer to start and stop the light
plant generator. One Electrician to flip the light switch on and off, and one Laborer to hook and unhook the light plant hitch to the truck. All the water pumps on the jobsite had their own Operating Engineer. The rock drills had an Operating Engineer and one Laborer. The Teamsters ran the parts trailer. I was supervision and as such, I could not pick up a shovel or a wrench lest I be time carded. I also could not tell any one Mechanic or Operator what to do. I had to tell the Operator Steward, or one of the three Master Mechanics what to do. They then told the others.

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Bully said:

Down with the unions,huh? Remember that next weekend or next time you hurt yourself on a job or need to take a leave of absence or your boss gives you some earplugs,saftey glasses or hard hat. Or you manage to snag some OT pay or your kid gets glasses, or you wife has a baby. Or you get to drink at the same fountain or your 10 year old doesn't die working in a coal mine, or your daughter doesn't have to do the bossman "favors" to keep her job, or you aren't gunned down in the street by some para-millitary clowns or your local police because you were using your 1st Ammendment rights. Be thankful you don't have to by all your stuff at the "company store". And live in "company housing" and live every waking moment in fear of losing your job because you choose to live your life as a free man with your own will and your dignity and brotherly love instead of fear and shame and having look over your shoulder to make sure the next guy isn't gonna take your job for less pay and longer hours and lower standards...

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What Bully says is an example of things that could and did happen a hundred years ago, and that gave rise to the unions. A lot of good came out of that.

What Surfer Joe says is an example of the way things were 25 years ago, and may even be today, in some localities. A lot of bad comes out of that sort of behavior.

John C said:

Another issue came when the carpenters tried to extend their authority over the heavy lift cranes. Normally that would have been only operating engineers and they refused to cede their authority so a court battle ensued. Both unions shut down construction for about a year and a half on all the plants, running up the bill to untold millions. It finally got resolved but then the meltdown at Three Mile Island hit and the costs of redesign doomed all the reactor construction projects in this country.

That job ended up going broke and became the largest municipal bond failure in history to that point. I put the in fighting between the unions as the primary reason for that and resolved to never let mulitple unions into any business I was a part of.

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Now there's a good example of how bad it can get.

The pendulum swings both ways.

Too much power to the owners, and the working man gets crushed. Too much power to labor, and the owners lose everything.

The working man needs to make a living. The companies need to make a profit. One hand needs to wash the other. Neither can do it without the other.

The human race crawled out of our caves, and went to the Moon, by learning to cooperate. Cooperation is the key to our collective success.

What we need to be doing today, in discussions such as this one, is to figure out how we can make the system work to everyone's benefit. You need to keep in mind though, that today's world isn't the same world it was a hundred years ago, or even 25 years ago, so to rely on what was the standard then, is not appropriate for the circumstances we face now.