Grader Joysticks V Lever Control

Northart said:

I know Merbston23, is fully capable of defending himself, as he interjected himself, into the conversation.

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See, here's the thing Mr. Northart......the fact that you recognize that merbston23 can defend himself would also suggest that you recognize he is under attack, why else would one need to defend themselves??? I'm sure you're well aware we don't allow attacks here at HEF.

Any company that does not constantly upgrade or improve their product runs the risk that their competition will. Caterpillar undoubtedly took on a big challenge with this machine but when the bugs are worked out, I'll bet it will be a machine the rest of the manufacturer's will pattern after. I'm just curious Northart, when will you be manufacturing your version?

Mad cow! Mad cow!

Northart said:

The idea that the climate in Peoria is it , for test purpose , phooey !

Why not ship the grader or components to Fort Greely , in Alaska for COLD WEATHER Testing ?? The Military does !

I've seen videos and DVD's of the Climate controlled labratories , what is wrong with them in finding the operational parameters ?

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I have been more or less involved in military testing for the last 10 years.
I can assure you that the degree of testing is variable between the different produsers.
Many is so pressed on the competition they cant take the time needed to test their products enough before series production.
Then much of the testing is also done as computer simulations...

If your competitor is launching a new modell that is far bether than your present, you got to have a new one equal before your customers is planning to change their old modell.

The M's was a year delied before customers got them over here, customers was checking out other brands delivery time. If the M was 3-6 months further delied, customers would have cancelled their contracts.
This puts a tremendous press on the test and verification departement. Adds and comercial programs makes it even harder to delay the start of the serial production.

Adds about a "total" redesign of the product, should make all of us suspitious... the more you change on the product, the bigger is the risk for problems.
Small changes is easier to handle and test enough before production.

Regarding military, its a total different situation. We put challenging demands to the products inside our contracts. Bet that all of them is testable...
And you are in big trouble if you promise stuff you cant hold. Contracts is waterproof and many has found it out the hard way.
Its sad that you owners/firms dont have such contracts with the produsers. It would have made the day much bether for most of us.
Cold/hot testing is a peace of cake, just put the stuff inside the chamber and run it for a day or two. When temp in your fuel and oil is as spec'd, just get in your cold climate dress and fire it up. Test all the functions under observation and make a report.
Then its ready for the fieldtesting....
But remember that we pay for it too. Mil spec equipment is not cheep.

Northart said:

Why not ship the grader or components to Fort Greely , in Alaska for COLD WEATHER Testing ?? The Military does !

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Ever look at the Military's budget? If you want to pay for it, I'm sure we can test in Antarctica. Heck, if you pay for it we'll test it on Mars.

I've seen videos and DVD's of the Climate controlled laboratories , what is wrong with them in finding the operational parameters

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And they exist. And they're sometimes in use 24/7. But look at the number of products we make: http://www.cat.com/cda/layout?m=37840&x=7. Sometimes it comes down to time. Time to get out in market before competitors, time to get something released so people can move on to the next project.

And the same way that it works with every company, with every project, with everything, it's a numbers game. Not that your opinion or experience don't count or that we're intentionally ignoring you.

Say Toyota expects to sell 100,000 Camrys in 2009.
95% are going to be in the continental US.
2.5% are going to be in Hawaii
2.5% are going to be in Alaska.

They're going to put their money and resources making sure that those 95% are working perfectly from day one and then work on resolving any special issues the other 5% have. Heck prior to 2007 it's what VW did with their TDI engines. California and other CARB states came out with their genius "all diesels suck." So VW just said "Screw you guys, we're gonig home" and sold to the other 45 states.

We joke around here about doing the same thing. I think if collectively every company that ran Diesel engines just said, "Sorry CA, no can do." Dropped off packages at the border of NV. Ran all the stuff from China through Juarez. Someone in CA would take a bit of notice.

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To the topic at hand. Some people still swear by stick shifts. Automatics just couldn't cut it in fuel economy and durability. New Dual Clutch Manumatics have all but eliminated the fuel economy gap. Old timers swore up and down that Automatics would lead to the demise of driving. (Which is debatable). I swore up and down I'd never get a car with power steering because I couldn't "feel" the road like I could with my old rack and pinion. I now drive a car with power steering... This is progress and it's here to stay.

Again. This is Revision 1.0, The 14Hs are on revision 10.0. I'm sure the OLD timers remember 14H 1.0 and I'm sure some have stories on how horrible all those fancy new features are. Give it 5 years and lets compare.

Debate ?

Hello Steve,

Perhaps I should of used different words. Left out "himself" and used "his argument" . Certainly would of sounded better.

I had no intention of making it sound like a personal attack . Sorry if it sounded that way.

Far as equipment modifications and feedback , I certainly have given that, to the Contractor, Dealer,etc.,and Randy even has forwarded my critiques back to Peoria, to the Motor Grader Engineers .

The interesting thing about construction, is the many people from elsewhere, that you meet on the job. Total strangers, yet experienced, seasoned, journeymen, Foremen,Superintendents, Project Engineers. Their impressions, contact was elsewhere, of the M series graders, mirrors mine also. What can I say .

One thing I don't do, is give a dishonest evaluation of something. Why sugarcoat problems ? Politicians are good at putting the spin on whatever ......

Hello Merbston,

Well your certainly making you case. Its a perspective that us end users never see out in the field. Its a information gap not found in any media. Except here.

I appreciate your input here, and hope you found something relevant in my comments also.

Operator Posture ?

Okay, now we have to deal with Operator Posture.

Every other machine has the arm rest level, or nearly so. Note the radical position here.

The clarity of the scan is the best I can make it.

That "Correct Position" picture in the lower left looks like his arms are being supported. So... what's the problem?

Looking at the pictures a thought came to be...I'm trying to think of a word that would best describe the difference between the guy sitting there with the joysticks compared to the levers...without the levers he just looks...lonesome

I would like to know your opinon's on why you think that Catrerpillar made this change, when even there own research said it would alienate a good portion there customers. Why would they offer a machine like this that was so radically diffrent with no other option. Motorgrader yes you can have it any way you want it, provided you want it with joysticks.

I have my thoughts and I would like to know some of yours.

Scott

G Model said:

I would like to know your opinon's on why you think that Catrerpillar made this change.

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Simplicity.
Repetitive Stress Injury (Look at the youtube video).
Packaging. Before you HAD to have the valves below the levers. Now you can shove them away somewhere and control them remotely.
Disconnect of the controls from the machine. Right now the entire vehicle is controlled with wires that are 10' long. Next step could be 'wires' 100' long. Then wireless. Then the computer is doing it.

When Delphi first introduced cruise control no one wanted. No one could see the point, so no one ever paid more for it. Some genius marketing guy decided to give a week long trip to Vegas for the dealer in the country that sold the most cars with Cruise Control. First year was pretty pathetic. Some large dealer sold 10 cars. True to their word Delphi took the dealer to Vegas and showed them the time of their life. Dealers talk so the next year everyone was competing. Repeat for 5-6 years. Suddenly new drivers who don't have any prejudices against it are getting Cruise Control... and they like it. Some people still hate it, but the momentum picks up. After a while Delphi just dropped the Vegas trip, and the rest is history.

Cat's not doing anything similar, but people are going to pick up the profession that have no clue how to use either system. If the joysticks are easier to use, they're going to like it. I mean who wouldn't love to sit on the front porch and use a remote control to mow rather than go out there and mow?

Before we got off this topic...........

I still have not really heard a clear answer from anyone about Cat going to need back up steering(a steering wheel) for roading at high speeds?Or should I say SPEED GRADING!!!!!Tee Hee
I just don't think... no actually I no that it is not possible to Snowplow at 50 kph with those joysticks only!

Please prove me wrong somebody, that has plowed with the M at that speed.If you have prove it to us and take a video with your third hand..

Great discussion boys and maybe girls!


roadrunner:canada

roadrunner said:

I still have not really heard a clear answer from anyone about Cat going to need back up steering(a steering wheel) for roading at high speeds?Or should I say SPEED GRADING!!!!!Tee Hee
I just don't think... no actually I no that it is not possible to Snowplow at 50 kph with those joysticks only!

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I bet this guy could do it after some practice.

And rumor has it the guys in my attachment run joysticks.

Although it may need some 'desensitizing' to do so. The best part about Drive By Wire is you can have different turn ratios for different speeds. I heard Mercedes and other car companies are experimenting with this. So at 10 MPH turning the wheel 90 degrees may be what it takes to go side to side, but at 90 MPH you need to turn the wheel 180 degrees to get a slight bit of change.

merbston23 said:

I bet this guy could do it after some practice.

And rumor has it the guys in my attachment run joysticks.

Although it may need some 'desensitizing' to do so. The best part about Drive By Wire is you can have different turn ratios for different speeds. I heard Mercedes and other car companies are experimenting with this. So at 10 MPH turning the wheel 90 degrees may be what it takes to go side to side, but at 90 MPH you need to turn the wheel 180 degrees to get a slight bit of change.

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Yes I know Cat says it 's joysticks are speed sensitive but that doesn't mean ---- to me when you are controlling a One-way,Moldboard,Wing, and oh let's say steering as well!
Everyone that has plowed snow over 30 kph with a wing will tell you that if it digs in or hits a hard approach you are sideways or in the ditch before you can blink!So you have to have steering that is not speed sensitive when you need to react in an instant!ointhead


Merbson are you sure that isn't photoshopped?LOL
Now leave me alone I have to go dig out my Nintendo with the dust on it!!!!:drinkup

Don't need three hands!

I shot this last week while plowing from Franklin Bluffs to W2 Pad (30 miles). Yeah; I admit it's a little blurry, but the requested gear reads 8th F, the actual gear reads 8th F , the speed reads 30 mph and the tach clearly shows 2000 RPM. 1 MPH = 1.6 KPH..... darn I missed it by 2 mph!!!!! It's difficult to even see the road, but I can see the reflective markers through the blowing snow.

I've spent some time on Champions and tried out a Volvo or two and I've yet to find one that can kick up the wake of snow this 16M does at 30mph/48kph pushing an 18 foot moldboard.

There is NO way you can spin your steering wheel as fast as I can move this joystick sideways; NO WAY

All the best....Randy

Randy where is your wing and one-way? Did it fall off?
Maybe you should compare a 160 M to a G970 with the same snow equipment and then tell me if you hit 48 kph.What you are doing on the ice doesn't mean anything about what I was talking about!
Your 16m sure will kick up the wake of snow won't it.....(RIGHT IN YOUR WINDSHIELD.....HAHAHAHA!ointhead)

Trust me you are not traveling 30 mph with that much snow constantly in you face all day long!

Oh and one more thing what are all those Red Warning Lights on for in the picture?

opcorn

ok, now here is probably the stupid question of the day. Randy, or anyone else, do the entry doors on the cab still lock back in the open position as the older models did? Of all the pictures I have seen of the M I have yet to see one open in this manner. Just wondering.

Yes they do....

Doors locked open

Here's a picture for you ,of a door locked open. Nice sunny view, but at the same time all the dust,dirt, wind, rain, comes in on you instantly. No side windows open .

Thanks. I can see now how the shape of the new cab doesnt deflect anything away from the operator. :usa

Roadrunner; I Misunderstood Your Question

The lights on the dash are the lights built into the rocker switchs, the right one is the parking brake & the left is the supplimental steering. I thought you had been in one. All the warning and indicator lights are above the gauges and for once none were lit up. Again my mistake, I must have been reading someone elses posting a while back.

I just don't think... no actually I no that it is not possible to Snowplow at 50 kph with those joysticks only!

Please prove me wrong somebody, that has plowed with the M at that speed.If you have prove it to us and take a video with your third hand..

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My apology again, I must have misread your post...duh

Trust me you are not traveling 30 mph with that much snow constantly in you face all day long!

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Again, please except my apology, but I just don't recall ever working with you. My memory just isn't what it use to be. I guess it was all a dream or maybe one of those ....what do they call them??? Photoshop job. Yeah that's it... Darn!
All the Best....Randy