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Oil & filter changes with old vs new equipment?

Speedpup

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I have 4 telehandlers which are Lulls with all John Deere motors 85-92. Question is they require oil change at 100 hr. I just was looking at a new CAT model and they said 500 hr. for oil and filter. Are all the newer machines that much more extended for oil and filter? I know cars have made great strides in recent years and I am familar with oil testing on my cars and trucks. Any feed back is appreciated, thanks!
 

milling_drum

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Did you get a spec sheet with warranty requirements for filters? If not, I'd check with what they recommend.

I worked for a fella that used aftermarket filters on a brand new CAT engine and they almost pulled the engine warranty when they saw filters other than CAT.
 

dist3

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We have Cat and Komatsu equipment in the fleet. Oil sampling is done on all equipment and Filter and Oil change intervals were increased. Machines with 500 hr change intervals are still changed before the 500 hr mark but are greater than 100 Hrs 250 to 300 hrs.. Both service reps recommend there brand filters during the warrenty period
 

Speedpup

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I don't have a new CAT I just saw it on their web site about 500 hr. oil intervals. What are new JD motors doing for oil change limit.
 

Speedpup

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I think the service manuals are online so I will look the at JLG forklifts.


The Cummins manual said 250 hr.
 
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John C.

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The engine manufacturers make the recommendations on the recommended time periods for changing oil and filters. If you want to run longer I would suggest using an oil sample program of some kind, as dist3 states, to monitor when problems start to show up and then change some time before that base line is established. Personally I have found that the cost of the oil sample program is usually about equal to the savings by extending the oil change intervals.

As to who's filters you use, the manufacturer's cannot specifiy their own products in order to maintain a warranty. The Magnuson Moss act passed into federal law in the sixties says that if they specify their product to maintain their warranty they have to give it to you. Having said that, should you have a problem and someone elses oil filter is on the engine when that happens, it might be used as a lever in negotiating the repair.

Unlike oils and fuels there are no independant professional organisations that set minimum specifications/standards for oil filters. There are only two or three oil filter manufacturers in the United States and the rest are rebranded in another name.

100 hours seems way to short of an interval from my experience. That would add operating cost to the machine that would be used by competitors as a lever for selling their machines. Cat's 500 hour specification is primarily due to increased crankcase capacity. Komatsu has done the same thing on many of their machines.
 

willie59

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I have 4 telehandlers which are Lulls with all John Deere motors 85-92. Question is they require oil change at 100 hr. I just was looking at a new CAT model and they said 500 hr. for oil and filter. Are all the newer machines that much more extended for oil and filter? I know cars have made great strides in recent years and I am familar with oil testing on my cars and trucks. Any feed back is appreciated, thanks!


How many hours does your machines have on them? That 85-92, does that mean they're 1985 - 1992 models? If so, I assume they have the 4-239 Deere engine, most of those hold somewhere around 2 1/4 gal oil. I agree with John C., 100 hrs is way frequent. 200-300 hrs should be sufficient and an oil sampling program could extend that. I'll say this for you, at least your paying attention to oil changes. I've worked on machines in the field for new customers that have 800-1000 hrs on the oil, talk about not caring for your equipment!
 

surfer-joe

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John C just about says it all.

Good point about oil capacity. More oil is better.

So long as filters meet the same spec as OEM, manufacturers can not holler too much. Now if it is a specialized filter, for some odd reason, that's where you have to look sharp.
 

Dualie

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Older engines tended to be harder on engine oils in the soot loading department. that might be the reason for the more frequent oil changes. I would stick to that if you are using the new low emissions oil since its add package is for the newer diesels that burn much cleaner and don't need to handle as much soot in the crank case.

but i think you could safely take that OCI out to 200 Hrs without a problem. Oil is cheep parts are expensive. in the end your the only one to blame.
 

Speedpup

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How many hours does your machines have on them? That 85-92, does that mean they're 1985 - 1992 models? If so, I assume they have the 4-239 Deere engine, most of those hold somewhere around 2 1/4 gal oil. I agree with John C., 100 hrs is way frequent. 200-300 hrs should be sufficient and an oil sampling program could extend that. I'll say this for you, at least your paying attention to oil changes. I've worked on machines in the field for new customers that have 800-1000 hrs on the oil, talk about not caring for your equipment!

You are correct on the engines one is turbo the 92 the others are not. OEM intervals were 100 hrs for oil and 125 if you use JD oil. I usually use JD engine oil filters and a few Baldwin. The machines have 2900 on the turbo then 3200, 6500, 3800. They all run fine with only one waterpump installed on the 3200 hr machine recently. Doubt any have gone over 140 hrs without a change.

I want to update as used stuff is so cheap on 2000+ models but I hardly ever had a problem with any of them. Two injection pumps, few injectors, and not much else.


I do oil testing on my Dodge dooley diesel and my Ford Excursion and found the Ford needs oil swap at 5000 vs the 7500 recommended and the Dodge can goes 10,000 vs 7500 recommended. I use dino oil not synthetic.

Actually one is a Detroit 6500 hr. not sure what type model 4 cylinder it is a 1985 machine. Thanks for the help.
 
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willie59

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You are correct on the engines one is turbo the 92 the others are not. OEM intervals were 100 hrs for oil and 125 if you use JD oil. I usually use JD engine oil filters and a few Baldwin. The machines have 2900 on the turbo then 3200, 6500, 3800. They all run fine with only one waterpump installed on the 3200 hr machine recently. Doubt any have gone over 140 hrs without a change.

I want to update as used stuff is so cheap on 2000+ models but I hardly ever had a problem with any of them. Two injection pumps, few injectors, and not much else.


I do oil testing on my Dodge dooley diesel and my Ford Excursion and found the Ford needs oil swap at 5000 vs the 7500 recommended and the Dodge can goes 10,000 vs 7500 recommended. I use dino oil not synthetic.

Actually one is a Detroit 6500 hr. not sure what type model 4 cylinder it is a 1985 machine. Thanks for the help.



You have a Lull with an old 2 stroke Detroit "Green Leaker" in it? Now that's something you don't see everyday. If that's what it is, it's going to be either a 4-53 (4cyl, 53 CID per cylinder), or a 4-71 (4 cyl, 71 CID per cyl). On either engine the blower is mounted on the side of the block. Look on the other side of the block, the 53 series has a rectangular cover plate on the side of the block with the long length of the rectangle horizontal. The 71 series has 4 individual cover plates on the side of the block at each cylinder. And you need to know this about your Detroit; use only SAE 30 engine oil. Modern multigrade oils have viscosity modifiers that are not good in these engines, the inverted scraper rings will destroy multi vis oils, and over time, the engine.
 
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John C.

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Way back when I was just starting out we were told to never use less than 40 Wt. in a Detroit unless you were running in the freeze.

I'm sure you can't run any multigrade oils is the two stroke fossils.
 

willie59

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Way back when I was just starting out we were told to never use less than 40 Wt. in a Detroit unless you were running in the freeze.

I'm sure you can't run any multigrade oils is the two stroke fossils.


SAE 40 will do. I was just working with the original Detroit spec of SAE 30, and I considered that Speedpup is in New York. But SAE 40 is a good choice.
 

Speedpup

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I don't know much about the Detroit it is the only one I have not had since new. No blower on it, the JD in the 10444 has the blower. It is two stroke and seems to rev higher than the JD's. Funny I was going to get a manual on it after having it as a yard machine since '92.

I had a 844 Lull 1980 with a 318 Chrysler and it was fast but it burned double the fuel may be 40 gallons in 7 hours when I was busy all day. So I sold it and bought this one from a friend for 5 grand less for the 1985. Mine was repainted when I sold it to another friend and he still has it and is a general contractor. It also had a 6' wide carriage which was a PITA for a mason.

I have to get the serial number and see if I can get a manual on the Detroit. I have been using 15-40 in it since 92. :eek: I'll snap a few pictures and may be you can help me identify it better. Thanks!
 

willie59

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I don't know much about the Detroit it is the only one I have not had since new. No blower on it, the JD in the 10444 has the blower. It is two stroke and seems to rev higher than the JD's. Funny I was going to get a manual on it after having it as a yard machine since '92.

I had a 844 Lull 1980 with a 318 Chrysler and it was fast but it burned double the fuel may be 40 gallons in 7 hours when I was busy all day. So I sold it and bought this one from a friend for 5 grand less for the 1985. Mine was repainted when I sold it to another friend and he still has it and is a general contractor. It also had a 6' wide carriage which was a PITA for a mason.

I have to get the serial number and see if I can get a manual on the Detroit. I have been using 15-40 in it since 92. :eek: I'll snap a few pictures and may be you can help me identify it better. Thanks!


Pics please, as I am getting confused here. You stated "I don't know much about the Detroit it is the only one I have not had since new. No blower on it". There's no such thing as a 2 stroke Detroit without a blower, it won't run without it. I'm curious what you have.
 

willie59

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Here's a pic of a typical 4-53 Detroit. If you look (in the pic) to the left of where the intake pipe flange bolts the the blower, you'll see a flat area on the block, that's where your model and s/n is stamped. The model number will be the top numbers, it will look like this; XXXX-XXXX. The s/n is below the model number. You will also see the Detroit circle arrows (as seen on the blower in pic) casted into the block and blower.
 

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Speedpup

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Well that is my motor:thumbsup:drinkup Never even thought is had a blower. I was looking for some thing like my JD turbo not some thing can of buried in close to the block :Banghead:pointhead. I like the sound of it better than the JD and it seems faster in the rpm department and seems like the machine is slightly faster.

How do you measure wear or performance on the engine for wear without being invasive to the engine? Sucks :mad: I just changed the oil & filter again and put 15/40 Valvoline in it.:(:(

From what I googled it is a very old design from near WWII. I guess it is not still made? If so when did it drop out of production?
 
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willie59

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Well that is my motor:thumbsup:drinkup Never even thought is had a blower. I was looking for some thing like my JD turbo not some thing can of buried in close to the block :Banghead:pointhead. I like the sound of it better than the JD and it seems faster in the rpm department and seems like the machine is slightly faster.

How do you measure wear or performance on the engine for wear without being invasive to the engine? Sucks :mad: I just changed the oil & filter again and put 15/40 Valvoline in it.:(:(

From what I googled it is a very old design from near WWII. I guess it is not still made? If so when did it drop out of production?


Speedpup,
Welcome to the wonderful world of the old Detroit "green leaker". Your right, there's nothing like the sound of a Detroit. My favorite was driving cranes that had the 6-71 and have that thing pegged out pulling a grade. Man what a sound. I think the last production model of the 2 stroke Detroit was the 8V-92T, somewhere around 1995. The engine just cannot meet the modern emmision standards of today, but the parts are still available and probably will be for a long time as there's still a lot of them out there. I wouldn't worry too much about your "just changing the oil", since you seem to do it quite frequently anyway, long before the oil breaks down. Just start using SAE 40 on your next oil change. As for wear/performance, we can't expect your engine to operate like a new one, as it's obviously not. But we can say this; a good Detroit with good compression doesn't have to crank long to start. A good/tight Detroit will fire off fairly quick when start is engaged. A new properly built Detroit will smoke very little if any, even when cold. Aged engines will white smoke a little when cold, but should clear up when warm. Oil useage is important on aged Detroits. Excessive oil useage indicates bottom piston scraper rings are bad. They allow a small amount into the air boxes (Detroit terminology) to lubricate the top piston rings, but exessive amounts mean they're worn. That's when you'll see excessive oil coming from the air box drain tubes and leaking onto the ground. My point is with the Detroit engine; as long as it doesn't "smoke everyone off the jobsite", starts fairly quickly, and doesn't use a ton of oil, you've still got a few years on her. Now that you recognize the "blower", I'll describe to you just what it is and why I said "it can't run without it". It's similar to a supercharger, but it's not a supercharger. It's what's called a "roots type blower". This engine is a two stroke engine, meaning, it doesn't have an intake stroke or an exhaust stroke. It only has a compression stroke and a power stroke. How can it do that??? Well, that's the blower. The Detroit cylinder has air ports at the bottom of it. The piston goes down below the ports, exhaust valves are open, fresh air is "blown" into the cylinders via the blower which removes exhaust gasses via open exhaust valves. Exhaust valves close, blower puts charge of fresh air into cylinders. Piston goes up, blocking ports, compression begins. At top of compression stroke, fuel is injected, piston forced down, power stroke. At bottom, ports open, exhaust valves open, we begin again. 2 stroke engine. I know this is a long post, buy hey, it's Friday night, got nothing better to do, and it's addressed to you. Just thought you might like to learn a little something about your green leaker. We affectionately call them this because they do leak oil. A fellow asked me once "how do I get my Detroit to not leak oil?" I replied "I wouldn't worry about it if it leaks oil...I'd worry if it didn't, because it doesn't have any oil!" I Hope your old Detroit hangs around for many years, your living old school in a modern world.
 

OCR

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Oil & filter changes with old vs new equipment? Superchargers/Blowers:

Good job of explaining why a 2 stroke (cycle) diesel engine needs a blower ATCOEQUIP.

Here's a little more on the subject....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roots_type_supercharger

Now... explain how a 2 stroke (cycle) chain saw engine works... :cool2... ;)


OCR... :)

Edit: That's odd... I made this post at about 11:20 PM... but it shows 07:30 PM... :confused:

Time stamp at bottom of page, copied and pasted... All times are GMT -7 The time now is 07:34 PM... :confused:
 
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