*** Help Please *** Hough 400 Loader

We recently acquired a big old 1967 IH Hough Payloader H400 (see picture),
All works ok except for Hydraulic system, is very slow and levers very stiff:
Lifting/lowering/tipping bucket takes ages.

This is our first Hough and we are not sure what is the cause

To get around the levers stiffness we want to retrofit the machine with Hydraulic controls, Ideally a Joystick type, can someone please advise us:

1. is the retrofit possible
2. does anyone knows of an easy hydraulic sys to install
3. any companies that supply such systems

Any input is greatly appreciated.

Tom

First step when troubleshooting hydraulics, especially on an older machine would be to drain the system, replace the filters and replace the fluid. Have you already tried that?

Joe

Thanks Joe,

Yes, we went through that to no avail,
it appear because the levers are so stiff that cause the delay which lead to slow response from the pump, that is why we wanted to replace mecanical controls with hyd.

tom

I think the most economical way to refit the controls would be to get a system from a salvage yard from a machine you like. You'll have to do some fabricating but it can be done.

first thing i would try, find out what the factoy cycle times are.those old pay loaders were slow when they were new compared to todays machines.

2nd) disconnect your linkage at the spool valves to see what kind of resistance is in it.linkage maybe gummed and rusted up if units been sitting for a long time.

3)by installing a pilot system you will gain nothing far as speed

Gee, that is an old one. I haven't seen one with a Detroit engine in it in years.

The stiffness in the levers is because the linkages are all frozen, probably from sitting idle for years. Take them apart, clean out the old hard grease and put them back together with lots of lubricant and they should work fine. Adding a pilot system would require a completely new main control valve, new set up for the pilot pump and all the hoses and tubes associated with the pilot system. In short the machine is not worth that kind of money.

The hydraulic systems in those old machines had gear pumps, most were Commercial Shearing. The speed of the bucket and boom were proportional to the effeciency of the pumps and the sealing inside the control valves. As I recall the pumps were mounted under the hydraulic tank so it has to be drained before they can be removed. Klyons' suggestion about the cycle times is right on. Also remember the machine might be slow but the machine usually carried about a ten yard bucket. It will not move like a smaller machine.

These machines were fast for their time but compared with the machinery produced today is really a dinosaur. They consumed truck loads of diesel, leaked hydraulic oil by the barrel and the transmissions were subject to sudden seal failures if over heated and gear failures when rough operators shifted them like they were in a Cat.

Good Luck!

I agree with Kylons and John, because of it's size and early design the hydraulics are not going to be as fast as a smaller or more modern machine.

I thought these were a pretty good machine for their day. They were Cat's nemesis in the 10 yard range for a long time against the 25K 992A. You saw them everywhere big dirt had to be moved and were especially popular in mining. Steels mills and ports had dozens of them for moving material into the furnace operations and loading/unloading ships.

I never saw one with a Detroit engine. The Cummins 1710 seemed to be the engine of choice as International just didn't make an engine big enough. Even the 560's struggled with the DT817ci International. The 560 did better with the Cummins 6 when Dresser took over.

I agree with the others on the control levers. Age and old dried grease and dirt or rust has made them hard. But the seals in the valve spools are probably swelled and very hard too. It's likely that you will experience severe leakage soon and will have to have the valves resealed. Parts should be available tho they won't be the original specs. Probably better.

The hoist and bucket crowd was slow compared to today's machines and even the Cat's and Michigan's of the day, their only other true competitors. Those were some pretty big cylinders to fill on the 400. Breakout force was tremendous however, which was a big advantage over the others.

So far as I know, International never had a pilot control hydraulic system for the 400 or the 560. I'm not even sure the 580 had it. I don't believe it would be an easy kit to make up, and it would probably cost twice what you paid for the old girl. But check with a Komatsu dealer, or a Dressta dealer if you can find one. It might be a stretch, but maybe the new 560C has something that could be adapted over, tho, again, cost will likely be a huge factor.

Try these guys for spare parts, tho they don't list 400's: http://www.elbex.go3.pl/

For those that loved the old International products as I did -- till Dresser and Komatsu mucked the company over -- it appears that they now live in new and redesigned form under a new name. Here's the website: http://www.dressta.com.pl/index.asp?p1=44

I'm hoping they show some of their iron at the next ConExpo and MinExpo shows.

Good Luck.

Thank you all guys, we will try your suggestions and report back,

the problem we have is that we can not find an operator willing to work it,
as it is, after a days work it feels like you had a fight with Mike Tyson!.

Please keep to suggestions coming.

thanks
Tom.

Just to update you all guys,

Acting on your advice we dismantled the levers controls and rods and cables,

All joints and fitting were rusting so badly, it seems like for lubrication the system had some permanent sealed grease but the years took their toll and it all dried up.

We lub’ed all fittings, put it back together and now it much much smoother to work with.

Once again we thank you all for your input and if any of you is familiar with the machine and knows something we should know about it please do not hesitate to let us know.

All the best
Tom

testing

For hydraulic components and telecables,strong-sensored commands,piloted commands, you can find it to www-hydrel (spain) and lot of other technical power products applications like spare parts for complete transmission...

Years ago we had a Cat 950, the hydraulics wore out and the owner adapted a L90 Volvo system with the short levers, used the cat tank etc you wouldn't believe the difference it made to operate it was quicker smoother, lot more preciese It was a log loader on a stockpile used buy lots of drivers and became the loader everyone wanted to drive think it had done about 30k hrs he used Volvo because he didn't want to spend to many $'s cause it only did a few hrs a day

Hough 400 Loader

I operated the only H400 in England and possibly in the UK from 1969 to 1974 and it really was a hell of a tool, even with a GM engine I could load a 50 ton Payhauler in 1minuite and 20 seconds and a 35 tonner in 35 seconds and thats digging out the material from situ. In 1974 I went head to head against a Cat 992 and there really was no contest even after 7 years hard graft the H400 was loading rocks weighing around 22 tons and the Cat could'nt even get them off the ground, all that happened was that the back wheels lifted off the ground so high you could walk under them if you were brave enough. The Cat was a light duty loader good for loading sand and gravel but for serious earthmoving the Hough was the tool, no contest.
As for slow hydrolics I had pump go down under warranty and even though it was only one cartridge the machine was vertually unuseable so that may have been the problem, most decent operators here used to do all our own maintenence and repairs unless in was really technical, but it was a pain in the arse to have drain the tank to fix it, I thought a valve on the bottom of the tank would have been handy in that situation as long as in could be locked and tamper proof

Are you sure you have the correct weight oil?
I agree with the chap who said it was "a pain in the arse" in having to drain the whole reservoir before doing any repairs. I ended up putting a couple of extra valves in the bottom of our reservior to enable the oil to be more easily collected and if in good nick, recycled. It certainly limited the risk of contamination.

Where are the hyd. filters located on these Houghs????? Mine is the Hough H 60-D......

I don't know the filter where-abouts on the machine you mentioned (H60D) but my Hough 65C has a large reservoir and if looking inside it when the oil is in it, I can't see the 3 very large filters inside the reservoir. They are about 6inches (150mm)under the oils surface when on the dipsticks high mark.
The Hough 65 has a flat metal sheet/plate locating & spacing them out. This sits on top of the filters & is held down with Nyloc nuts (torqued at 20 ft/lbs). Again I say this may not be the same in your Hough 60D machine but seeing as it's a Hough, they may have carried the idea over to your H60-D. I had a Hough 60 but never did the Hydr filters. Got someone else to do the job.
The filters cost an arm & a leg over here in NZ I think they were something like NZ$115 each
Hope that helps. All the best.

Another important factor (which I learnt about the hard way) is that both Transmission and Torque convertor/Hydr reservoir are checked with warm oil, and gear shift sitting in neutral.
Back then, I thought Torque convertor oil should be checked with it running cause a car's automatic gear box is done that way but after draining the tranny, cleaning the gauze filters & replacing the oil up to the full level on the dip stick (when stationary & engine off) that it would be the correct level.
I then thought the control bank must have needed servicing. about $800 later found same problem. Then a friendly man said told me to check it with motor running. After about another 8 or 9 litres /quarts, which brought the oil level up on the dip stick (engine running) the old girl roared off into the sunset. drrrrrrrr. I learned something that day & it hasn't looked back, although the pockets even now, still feel light.