It Begins: Big Bud Tractor to be Produced Again, Simple and Repairable

Birken Vogt said:

I can wager a guess which engine mfr they will not be using.

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It sure isn't Daimler they have enough on their plate plus not interested in Ag to a large degree.
I'm not to sure Cummins would be a good idea, Cummins has some major supply chain issues.

Here in Australia there are plenty of old school tractors still the main stay on cropping properties and the farmers won't part with them. Many have been fitted with auto steer and it doesn't have any interface with the rest of the machine so if it fails flick a switch a keep working. I'm guessing that is the same scenario as elsewhere which is a huge chunk of the tractor market and a good business case for Big Bud.

John C. said:

As I recall Cat was in the process of dumping the AG stuff when I left the dealership some 5 years ago. Production all went to AGCO.

The issue with the electronics is partially the engine emissions but goes a lot deeper. All the attachments have some electronic controls that have to integrate into the machines. Planters and fertilizer spreaders interact with computerized mapping using GPS to vary the rates of seed placement and fertilizer spread. You might have the simple tractor to pull those implements, but without an interface and control software, the machine is little different than a mule.

Farming is now and forever more a high tech business.

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An Agleader display can handle isobus control, variable rate, and guidance with an ez-steer without integrating anything into the tractor. Between the partnership with Rome Plow and releasing the new tractor at ConExpo they must be going for the scraper tractor market at least some. Mobile Track Solutions already builds a rubber track scraper tractor with Cat parts.

In my industry, RS485 or CANBUS type communication between various manufacturers' building blocks is getting more common all the time. No reason it can't be so for tractors. It does not all have to be proprietary under one roof.

I can't see a return to non-electronic machines, because electronics increase efficiency no end. But the electronics need to be robust and simple, and well-protected from damage, and the manufacturers have to stop withholding information on how to fix the electronics when it goes wrong.
It's not good enough to be told, "just call one of our technicians", when there's 800-1000kms between your equipment and the technician, and roads are goat tracks.
The Tesla way of fixing problems remotely via satellite or phone link seems to be the way current electronic design is heading. But that idea only ensures more power remains in the manufacturers hands.

The true test of all this stuff is how much is still going to be running in the event of war. An enemy would only have to pop a decent burst of radiation from an EMP weapon, and virtually anything electronic is fried.
Even another major geomagnetic storm presents a possibility of all our electronic wizardry failing miserably. Google "Carrington event", and imagine if that - or a worse GMS event - happened today.
Add into the equation, those basically evil NK's, who are reportedly working on an EMP weapon, and we could end up relying on a lot of antique tractors to produce our food, if the NK's happen to develop and use one.

In his book "Mover of men and mountains" R.G. Letourneu told a story of when he was a young man working at his brother-in-laws car dealer ship in Stockton Cal. I believe the year was 1907 and don't recall the brand of car but that year they decided to install a starter motor to replace the hand crank. Well, with a starter motor comes a battery, a generator, lots of wires and while they're at it might as well install electric lights. R.G. said all the mechanics were complaining that those cars were getting so complicated pretty soon no one was going to be able to work on them. Today, while scrolling through the internet I came across a story about Dorman automotive products celebrating their 100th anniversary. 2 guys started the company because they thought that the average car owner should be able to buy parts to fix their own cars. As Soloman said, "there's nothing new under the sun". I am all for BigBud starting up again, I think we have gone way to far overboard on computer operated everything but they sure operate nice, when they work. I am becoming more and more convinced that the sole purpose of the internet and computers in general is strictly a control issue. Get everyone hooked on it, get everything neccesary for modern living relying on it and you can control the average persons life. Can't say much more without this becoming a political post.

Birken Vogt said:

Sounds like they are going to use a Cat engine. Engine problems and controls are pretty well understood by now. And Cat lets people have their software, for a price anyway. It is the auxiliary garbage that a certain major tractor manufacturer likes to sprinkle all over that is all networked together and not so well understood. And I assume that being the mfr, they will have full access to the Cat info, and probably share it with and help their customers.

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I actually find Deere much more willing to work with me than Cat is. I have Deere Service Advisor and have had the Hitachi excavator program for years. Also have always had a good working relationship with all the Deere dealers, ag and construction, service departments and service techs. I have never been able to justify the large expense to purchase Cat ET. I called the Cat service department one day to ask a simple question and when the service manager heard my company name he told me that he didn't have time to talk to the competition, like a one man company was going to drive them out of business. The following day I called him back and gave him my customers name instead of mine and got the info I needed. In general very few of the local Cat dealer techs will even acknowledge me. I'm sure it works both ways but this is my experience.

hvy 1ton said:

Between the partnership with Rome Plow and releasing the new tractor at ConExpo they must be going for the scraper tractor market at least some.

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This would be a good niche market to chase. The scrapper crowd spends big money trying to find a reliable power source and I haven't heard of any that stands out as a winner.

Truck Shop said:

Series 60 14L.

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3412 Cat I'll show yins how to plow

Does anyone remember the Steiger Tractors. Panthers and Cougars that I appraised were basically trucks configured for pulling farm implements. They were probable the simplest articulated unit I ever got to put my hands on.

Case IH 4 wheel drives have Steiger roots but seems I read on here they don't hold up well pulling scrapers.

John C. said:

Does anyone remember the Steiger Tractors. Panthers and Cougars that I appraised were basically trucks configured for pulling farm implements. They were probable the simplest articulated unit I ever got to put my hands on.

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Early on when my scraper customer was looking at buying another tractor we went and looked at an early Case IH articulated, built shortly after they acquired Steiger. The one thing that really impressed me was how open everything was under the cab ect. Looked to be very easy to work on. We didn't buy it because it had outboard planetary axles and couldn't narrow it down enough.

Welder Dave said:

Case IH 4 wheel drives have Steiger roots but seems I read on here they don't hold up well pulling scrapers.

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Their Steiger roots died when CNH married Fiat. The "new" generation circa 2000 or so when they discontinued the 9xxx series tractors was the end of anything Steiger.

I did read a couple weeks ago that the new Buds would more than likely be 750+ hp. That would move them out of the realm of emissions law.

I think the primary purpose of big 4 wheel drives is tillage. You don't necessarily need all the latest GPS and everything else to work the field. You just want to pull the widest implements to speed up getting the field prepped.

excavator said:

I actually find Deere much more willing to work with me than Cat is. I have Deere Service Advisor and have had the Hitachi excavator program for years. Also have always had a good working relationship with all the Deere dealers, ag and construction, service departments and service techs. I have never been able to justify the large expense to purchase Cat ET. I called the Cat service department one day to ask a simple question and when the service manager heard my company name he told me that he didn't have time to talk to the competition, like a one man company was going to drive them out of business. The following day I called him back and gave him my customers name instead of mine and got the info I needed. In general very few of the local Cat dealer techs will even acknowledge me. I'm sure it works both ways but this is my experience.

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I guess it depends on who you get. But chances are, Big Bud is going to be the one providing the support to the customer even on the engine end of things. And their model says to give the support rather than withhold it.

I too had a relationship with the Deere dealer at one time. Because one of their techs called me and asked for info for a brand I rep, I gave it to him freely. They were helpful and friendly to me after that. But the company has since been sold and some don't work there any more so I don't know if that relationship is still alive.

Welder Dave said:

I think the primary purpose of big 4 wheel drives is tillage. You don't necessarily need all the latest GPS and everything else to work the field. You just want to pull the widest implements to speed up getting the field prepped.

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Disagree. The wider the implement, the more draft when wandering back and forth. This leads to requiring more overlap to prevent skipping. Also, we do tillage for seedbed prep. I run the planter in the spring for corn and sunflowers. Tillage is done at a certain angle to allow the planter to do the best job. Too little angle, planter rows follow tillage pass. Too much angle, row units are crossing the tillage passes in such a way that ride suffers, which in turn affects seed placement or spacing which will affect yield, sometimes substantially.

So, yes, GPS is highly preferred in tillage applications.

The whole right to repair debate started with John Deere and got pretty ugly. Had Deere prevailed would probably have been a big boost to Big Bud.

Shimmy1 said:

Disagree. The wider the implement, the more draft when wandering back and forth. This leads to requiring more overlap to prevent skipping. Also, we do tillage for seedbed prep. I run the planter in the spring for corn and sunflowers. Tillage is done at a certain angle to allow the planter to do the best job. Too little angle, planter rows follow tillage pass. Too much angle, row units are crossing the tillage passes in such a way that ride suffers, which in turn affects seed placement or spacing which will affect yield, sometimes substantially.

So, yes, GPS is highly preferred in tillage applications.

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0K, then what is the purpose of having the largest tractor if more overlap is required with wider implements? Seems you'd defeat the purpose of a bigger tractor. The Big Bud 747 pulled the widest implements at the highest speeds which was part of it's claim to fame in addition to be the highest HP tractor.

Birken Vogt said:

I guess it depends on who you get. But chances are, Big Bud is going to be the one providing the support to the customer even on the engine end of things. And their model says to give the support rather than withhold it.

I too had a relationship with the Deere dealer at one time. Because one of their techs called me and asked for info for a brand I rep, I gave it to him freely. They were helpful and friendly to me after that. But the company has since been sold and some don't work there any more so I don't know if that relationship is still alive.

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I would be surprised if BigBud will be able to provide the Cat support needed, I have a customer with a Powerscreen screener that has a little Cat in it. Powerscreen has no ability to do anything with the engine, the Cat dealer always has to come out.

That's where RTK comes in. Sub-inch repeatable accuracy. Literally no overlap needed with GPS. You need to be overlapping quite a bit to not have skips if you are steering it manually.