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What was the last year when Caterpillar machines was still non-electronic?

Electronic machine or non-electronic machine?

  • Electronic machine

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    12

JD955SC

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2011
Messages
1,349
Location
The South
I have been working on mostly trucks but some equipment since electronics started showing up. There were some growing pains in the beginning but nowadays ECM and electronic component failures are rare. Engine sensors fail occasionally and Allison transmission TCU's seem to give trouble once in a while. The biggest cause of electronic problems is bad connections and rubbed and broken wires. From what I have seen most mechanics start at the wrong end of the "trouble shooting tree" or flow chart.

I am the electrical and electronics troubleshooting guy at our shop. A lot of times the trees we use are flawed and will lead you past the right answer easily and right into replacing ECMs and components. Or to a dead end so the average mechanic just starts guessing. It also doesn’t help when the foreman who has never professionally wrenched starts telling you to “just replace this” or “just replace that”. The service info I see and use on a daily basis is NOT written to help a mechanic it’s written by fifteen engineers who want to show the others how much more nerdy they are. Every service manual should go to a veteran mechanic for vetting and clarification and telling the nerds to put needed specs or info right into that instructions vs sending them on a scavenger hunt for it.
 

Truck Shop

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2015
Messages
16,542
Location
WWW.
Or to a dead end so the average mechanic just starts guessing.

Plus with multiplex wiring and sam modules thrown in the picture it's another set
of issues. What I've found {at least with the equipment I work on} is failure of so
many different areas one doesn't communicate to the other because of harness
issues. And guess what there's a bulletin/recall for that problem. Freightliner has
had since the beginning of the Cascadia over a 100 recalls all due to electrical.

One of our drivers wanted a extra set of LED turn signal lights installed on the
bottom side of his mirrors on a 2022 KW T990. I told the owner forget it, you
can't just patch into any wire that's flashing. It's multiplex with sam, there is
a port for accessories like that. I didn't have the time or the schematic to do it.
It went to KW--Disassemble the dash, both doors, mirrors, run all the wire and
hide it------------$1,550.00 for labor for two extra lights. Stupid.
 

John C.

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
12,865
Location
Northwest
Occupation
Machinery & Equipment Appraiser
The US EPA stuff started in 1996 for off highway engines but the electronic fuel injection wasn't really required until Tier 4 Interim in the mid 2000s. That's basically where the ultra high pressure fuel systems known as common rail came into broad use.

Electronic machine controls started showing up in the late eighties with Komatsu and Hitachi excavators. All that actually started with the Scandinavians at Accurman experimenting with it in the early eighties.

All the big name manufacturers put self diagnostic software in the machines but then keep secret the special things needed for access to those menus. I've always felt that to be unfair and short sighted on the manufacturers' part and that is why I put together the video programs to show people how to access those secret handshakes.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9ZtvgWG-EtmGZhvtMeBMEQ
 

HarleyHappy

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2020
Messages
436
Location
So NH
Occupation
Welder/Mechanic
Seems to me I have had more electrical problems with Cat than others that had to be fixed by them. Especially when the machines were somewhat new.
 

John C.

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
12,865
Location
Northwest
Occupation
Machinery & Equipment Appraiser
There is some churn in the industry about electrical connectors. It is another example of engineering from catalogs. It seems the dominant one right now is generally known as Deutz or Bosch connectors. I've heard other being called Weather Tight.

I found this site on the web saying there are only a few manufacturers of connectors. You might find it interesting. https://www.bisinfotech.com/top-10-automotive-connectors-manufacturers-in-the-world/

I have seen other makes and names of connectors on machines made in Japan and will note that one machine might use several different manufacturers products. Wiring harnesses in general seem to be getting better all the time is sealing out weather and associated corrosion.
 

JD955SC

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2011
Messages
1,349
Location
The South
There is some churn in the industry about electrical connectors. It is another example of engineering from catalogs. It seems the dominant one right now is generally known as Deutz or Bosch connectors. I've heard other being called Weather Tight.

I found this site on the web saying there are only a few manufacturers of connectors. You might find it interesting. https://www.bisinfotech.com/top-10-automotive-connectors-manufacturers-in-the-world/

I have seen other makes and names of connectors on machines made in Japan and will note that one machine might use several different manufacturers products. Wiring harnesses in general seem to be getting better all the time is sealing out weather and associated corrosion.


If it ain’t Deutsch or Ampseal it ain’t worth a damn.

The cheaper automotive grade connectors and the high density tiny pin ECM connectors, that’s all pure garbage. Especially the white plastic connectors.
 

OzDozer

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2007
Messages
2,207
Location
Perth, Western Australia.
Occupation
Semi-Retired ..
The Japanese, with their anal attention to detail, generally manufacture the best wiring harness connectors. They go to great lengths to ensure multiple seals on connector joins, and tight wire sealing where the wires enter the connector.
In my neck of the woods, sun damage is something that damages a lot of harness connectors, the plastics are not durable enough to resist the strong UV light. Deutsch connectors are one of the most durable.

By far the single greatest physical problem with electrics though, is wiring not being routed safely (avoiding sharp edges), or not being secured properly - preferably at 6 inch intervals. And the major reasons why wiring and connectors end up producing problems, is when a mechanic works on a machine or truck, and doesn't replace and secure the wiring and harnesses, as they came from the factory.
You don't see wiring like spaghetti in aircraft, it's routed and secured to ensure not the slightest chance of any movement or damage from chafing.
 

JD955SC

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2011
Messages
1,349
Location
The South
The Japanese, with their anal attention to detail, generally manufacture the best wiring harness connectors. They go to great lengths to ensure multiple seals on connector joins, and tight wire sealing where the wires enter the connector.
In my neck of the woods, sun damage is something that damages a lot of harness connectors, the plastics are not durable enough to resist the strong UV light. Deutsch connectors are one of the most durable.

By far the single greatest physical problem with electrics though, is wiring not being routed safely (avoiding sharp edges), or not being secured properly - preferably at 6 inch intervals. And the major reasons why wiring and connectors end up producing problems, is when a mechanic works on a machine or truck, and doesn't replace and secure the wiring and harnesses, as they came from the factory.
You don't see wiring like spaghetti in aircraft, it's routed and secured to ensure not the slightest chance of any movement or damage from chafing.

I do my best to route and secure harnesses but a major issue with them is that the manufacturers sure do like to run them stupidly. Slicing zip ties in tight areas is no fun and trying to resecure them can be a real pain in the butt. Also when the service diagram does not show the routing of the harness it can make for difficult times.
 

Truck Shop

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Joined
Dec 7, 2015
Messages
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Location
WWW.
Well one place to never use a zip tie--ABS cables to sensors attached to air lines to air chambers.
Every time brakes are energized the hoses/airlines do swell very slightly, if cable zip ties are used
and installed too tight the added air psi will over time break the wire inside of ABS cables.
There is a special clip for attaching cables to air lines.
 

Birken Vogt

Charter Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2003
Messages
5,305
Location
Grass Valley, Ca
Whatever makes assy costs lowest, makes sale price lower, makes it attractive to the buyer.

Mechanic gets paid by the hour to do whatever he has to do.

Buyer/owner pays the mechanic.
 

John C.

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
12,865
Location
Northwest
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Machinery & Equipment Appraiser
In my experience, harnesses are designed by the manufacturer, blue printed and then sent out for bids to sub contractors to assemble. What I have seen was an assembly board printed showing the actual length and color codes of the wires. All the wires are then laid out on the board and the harness connectors attached at one end. the loom was then applied and the harness connectors installed on the open end.

When the machine is built I've seen the harnesses installed on the frames and then the components installed. It makes it a real pain when brackets and mounts are placed over the top of said harnesses and you get an electrical fire some years later.
 

Mobiltech

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2014
Messages
1,680
Location
Sask.
Occupation
Self employed Heavy duty mechanic
One of the biggest problems with cat harnesses is the rubber dipped metal clamps they use to secure major harnesses to the frame. The rubber wears off from vibration and the clamp cuts into the harness like a knife. Sometimes I think they’d be better off without those clamps.
I have been known to re engineer a few harness clamps when I come across a bad one.
 

Mike L

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 1, 2010
Messages
1,897
Location
Texas
Occupation
Self employed field mechanic
In my experience, harnesses are designed by the manufacturer, blue printed and then sent out for bids to sub contractors to assemble. What I have seen was an assembly board printed showing the actual length and color codes of the wires. All the wires are then laid out on the board and the harness connectors attached at one end. the loom was then applied and the harness connectors installed on the open end.

When the machine is built I've seen the harnesses installed on the frames and then the components installed. It makes it a real pain when brackets and mounts are placed over the top of said harnesses and you get an electrical fire some years later.

makes me think of 2 different machines. #1 is all the cat 521 bunchers. So flammable that insurance companies won’t offer a policy due to a harness under the cab I’m told. I’ve only ever seen the aftermath. #2 was the barko 240b. Barko would outsource the harnesses like they outsource everything else. Had a random code that I can’t remember. Chased it forever and when I called barko for some help they told me that plug #1234 has 2 blue wires right next to each other in a plug. Swap them in the plug and bingo. Problem solved. They always seems to know about these issues but never issued a service bulletin.
 

92U 3406

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Jan 3, 2017
Messages
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Location
Western Canuckistan
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Wrench Bender
One of the biggest problems with cat harnesses is the rubber dipped metal clamps they use to secure major harnesses to the frame. The rubber wears off from vibration and the clamp cuts into the harness like a knife. Sometimes I think they’d be better off without those clamps.
I have been known to re engineer a few harness clamps when I come across a bad one.
Either that or the oil/grease deteriorates the rubber.
 

OzDozer

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2007
Messages
2,207
Location
Perth, Western Australia.
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Semi-Retired ..
In the 70's, I owned an Australian-built International cabover, tandem-drive truck - an ACCO DF1840 (these were nicknamed "Butterbox" ACCO's due to their squared-off cab). That truck had one of the best wiring harnesses ever - every single wire was not only colour-coded - IH also printed a number on each wire, so you could trace every wire, no matter where it was!
The numbers were repeated close together, along the whole length of the wire. This sure made life easy - although no electronics, made it even easier! I'm guessing all IH trucks of that era followed the same wiring design? or was it just an Australian IH initiative?
 

92U 3406

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Western Canuckistan
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Wrench Bender
Then there's the Mercedes Unimog where every dang wire is white and most of the numbers are hard to read. Not that it mattered because there's next to zero support for them here anyways.
 

Truck Shop

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2015
Messages
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Location
WWW.
every single wire was not only colour-coded - IH also printed a number on each wire, so you could trace every wire, no matter where it was!
The numbers were repeated close toget

Pete is that way. For years and years Pete used a standard chassis harness. #241 was always there, it
was a wire run for temp sender on a auxiliary gear box. Those who knew about would use it for extra
lights, PTO warning and so on. #242 was a auxiliary spare wire used for many things, air dryer element,
back up lights what ever. But one thing until 1986 backup lights were not standard equipment, had to
order it.
 
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