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German engine made in China?

towbar

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I'm digging for info on Deutz BF6L913C engines, built a F4L912 once and sold it long ago. I've known since those days that these engines made anywhere else could be risky propositions but I went and looked at chinese sources anyway. They have prices that are 'all over the place'! Can anybody shed some light on how the same engine, new, can sell for 3k in one store VS. 7k in another?

I once talked to a Chinese developer (twice actually as I almost went into business with another) who told me that "we study your products until we know thenm more that you ever did, and then we make them cheaper as well as much better but not in the same edition; you will get what you pay for". So fine, I can digest that much, but how on earth do I tell which one of two ads is honest (not wanting to hit one that's both lower quality AND more expensive)?
 

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56wrench

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I wouldn’t touch anything other than a genuine DEUTZ engine. Look at the honda knock-offs—-junk. And then how about replacement parts? Good luck with that. But, its your wallet
 

towbar

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I wouldn’t touch anything other than a genuine DEUTZ engine. Look at the honda knock-offs—-junk. And then how about replacement parts? Good luck with that. But, its your wallet

I tend to agree, finding a genuine good-runner and building it myself is more footwork but carries less risk. Footwork don't hurt as much as a few grand wiped out.
 

Welder Dave

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Are those engines new or just painted? There isn't enough description. As far as Honda knock off's some are just as good and can even have better features such as bearings instead of bushings. I have Champion water pump that cost 1/2 of a Honda and has been extremely dependable even being left out in the rain and snow over the winter. Only thing I've had to repair was the recoil starter because the spring broke. Removing the starter it did have a notch for hooking a manual start rope so I wasn't stuck without a pump. A Honda spring fit to repair it. I think a complete Honda starter would bolt right up. I was so impressed I bought another Champion pump when I saw it on clearance. The pumps come with wheels and hoses too.
 

towbar

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I sold an orphaned F4L912 some years ago. The block had been chewed into by a spun thrust bearing but the local machinist did a nobel-prize level job on it. He cut into the block and pinned a machined spacer to it returning the bearing seat face to original profile. It was *a true work of art*, I still have pictures of it somewhere. THAT engine became the first one in my DIY snow-blower and worked like a charm for years lacking only the amount of torque I wanted. It had been built in Germany from A to Z which is why I spared no effort when I initially rebuilt it. To make a long story short the guy who next bought it from me drove 1900 clicks though all he really wanted was the block 'made in Germany'.

My own experience with Chinese products has been very mixed. I still have an anvil I bought from them 30+ years ago when they were just breaking into this market; but just this summer twice I returned some truck lights I had bought via Amazon because those on the other hand were absolute pukes! I'd be a little scared to fork over several thousand for an BF6L913C with next to no recourse if I get a lemon for my money.
 

catman13

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Honda knock off's are good, i think honda makes them in china and renamed them, some people are honda nuts and some cant afford a honda, this way honda sales to both customers and profits on both ends
 

towbar

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I believed the Chinese guy who said "you get what you pay for". When Deutz was still having these engines made in China the quality control was theirs, it no longer is. Deutz or Honda are heavies that the Chinese factory would wanna keep but when I as a rank nobody (a.k.a. a retail-customer) order one from them to save money I risk losing my shirt. And if I'm going to pay big bucks ANYWAY then I either give the build to a local builder whom I or someone close to me knows and swears by or I build it myself, in either case starting with my original block or a used good-runner 913 with a German block bought for that purpose.

But I'm jumping the gun a little, I still have to first figure out whether the existing 912 can be upgraded or if a 913 will rule the day. For example I have found no 912 equivalent of a blown and intercooled 913 to cannibalize parts from. In the meanwhile I'm open to read the opinion of gurus here who would categorize themselves as 'swearing by retail chinese air-cooled Deutz 6 holers'.
 

OzDozer

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Stick with the German-built Deutz engines. You buy Chinese, you might as well buy a lottery ticket, their idea of QC is totally different to ours, and factory backup is unheard of.
The problem with Chinese manufacture is they often outsource components, and there's no quality control on the outsourcing. So you might get a good engine, and you might get a dog.
I cannot honestly say I've met someone who swears by Chinese engines, they all invariably say the same thing - "It was cheap, so I took a punt on it. If it throws a leg out of bed, no great loss. If it keeps going, I'm in front".
All the little "Chonda" engines down under here are hit and miss in quality. Some last alright, some simply crap themselves early. They're cheap, so people keep buying them.
I bought a little Chonda fire-fighter pump off eBay Australia, it cost me AU$187 delivered. I went to put fuel in it, the fuel promptly ran out on the ground!! I pulled the fuel tank off and found they'd forgotten to connect the fuel line to the tank!!
Hooked the fuel line up, bolted the fuel tank back on, and it goes like a steam train! So I guess they didn't forget to bolt up the big end cap bolts!
 

Birken Vogt

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Materials can also be a big problem. I had a small engine with less than 100 hours I that broke intake studs. Took the head off and discovered by accident that the intake valve face was all battered to death. It would not have run much longer like that.

Bad materials can get you anywhere. Cam, lifters, valves, seats, crank, rods, pistons, bores all waiting to wear out or break if they were not cast or hardened or machined correctly.
 

towbar

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Materials can also be a big problem. I had a small engine with less than 100 hours I that broke intake studs. Took the head off and discovered by accident that the intake valve face was all battered to death. It would not have run much longer like that.

Bad materials can get you anywhere. Cam, lifters, valves, seats, crank, rods, pistons, bores all waiting to wear out or break if they were not cast or hardened or machined correctly.

And how could you really verify the quality of a cast with trace but well lined up impurities? It's nonsense, it's all about trust established over decades if not centuries of experience.

Meanwhile I've been looking and see that the BF6L913C engine had been made in China under license before it expired. Is it possible then that all these model engines were made there? I remember that the F4L912 that I once sold had definitely been made in Germany (and that the buyer verified it as he would not have bought it otherwise) but I don't remember where that was stamped or written on, or was in encoded in the serial #? Assuming that I do get lucky and find a good-runner around here how can I make sure that it was in fact made in Germany?
 

OzDozer

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Virtually every engine I've examined over many decades, has the country of manufacture on the engine data plate. The problem is not so much where the block was made, but how good the QC was when it was finish machined. Under German management, a factory in China producing Deutz engine components would have a good record, as the German management ensures proper QC is in place.

Left to their own devices, the Chinese factories will corrupt any proper QC practices, shortcut the practices, acquire substandard components from unauthorised suppliers, and generally "cheapen" the end product.
Fat profits are the aim of every Chinese, they worship wealth, and business and personal gain - and if corruption is part of that gain, then they're happy to include corruption in the move for more gain.
God knows we have enough corruption in the Western world - but in the East, it's a way of life. Even Caterpillar got seriously burnt with their first Perkins engine manufacturing venture in China in the 1990's.

Here's an extract (below) from a business article dated Jan 8, 2019. The article states that Deutz pulled out of their manufacturing JV in China in that year, and are now reliant on the Chinese-run factory to supply their requirements.
On that basis, seeing as the Germans have now departed from that manufacturing facility in China, and have left everything, including QC, totally up to the Chinese, I'd suggest that Deutz component quality has more than likely declined since that date, and an older block would provide a better guarantee of quality, as it would have been produced under German management - or have been manufactured in Germany.

"Remaining in China, German off-highway diesel engine manufacturer DEUTZ has sold its 50% stake in DEUTZ Dalian, its Chinese joint venture, to JV partner First Automotive Works (FAW). The parties have agreed not to disclose any commercial details, and the transaction is subject to approval by the Chinese authorities.
Despite ending the long-running JV, DEUTZ and FAW will continue to collaborate on the basis of a customer-supplier relationship. DEUTZ can still procure engines for off-highway applications from FAW upon request. To this end, the two companies have reached an agreement to explore further possibilities for collaboration in future. The withdrawal from the DEUTZ Dalian joint venture is not expected to significantly impact on earnings this year.
'This step allows us to realign our Chinese activities. We are now reorganising our presence in China in order to generate stronger growth and be even more successful there. Talks on new alliances with major local partners in the construction equipment and agricultural machinery industries have already reached an advanced stage,' said chairman of the DEUTZ board of management, Dr Frank Hiller. The company plans to publish further details in the current year."

There's a book written over 20 years ago, called "Poorly Made in China". It was written by an American who managed manufacturing facilities in China, and goes into depth about the Chinese problem of "quality fade".
Nothing has really changed in over 20 years in China, they will still put profits first over consistent quality, and the building of a good brand name.

Some good reading here, too ....
https://www.enginebuildermag.com/2019/06/a-look-into-manufacturing-in-china/
 

cfherrman

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China can do quality work, if you pay them.

There is also ways to test castings, I just don't remember at the moment. If it's cast and cheap from China, it is popcorn
 

towbar

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Virtually every engine I've examined over many decades, has the country of manufacture on the engine data plate. The problem is not so much where the block was made, but how good the QC was when it was finish machined. Under German management, a factory in China producing Deutz engine components would have a good record, as the German management ensures proper QC is in place.

Thanks for the substantive response!

I just saw the plate of an engine on the net and Made-in-Germany was written on it. Also found the pre-sale 'good-runer-running' video of the 4-holer I built in 2008 and sold in 2018, that video had the plate on it for a title-frame. This one is obviously in German but doesn't say Made-in-Germany.

plate-700.png

& some plasti I did, always use both green and red

mains-plasti-700.png



I agree that QC does exist WHILE enforced but after that it's russian roulette. Their attitude is lacking, minutes ago I had another example of that as I challenged a supplier to explain why the power-curve torque in their own add is 12% short of the official one? The answer I got was that specs change, and a copy of another equally well known power-curve, meaning that they themselves never did a single dyno run or bothered with actual performance! Over the years every time I have asked one of them for some details all I got was "tsaright, no problem, sarright!"


God knows we have enough corruption in the Western world - but in the East, it's a way of life. Even Caterpillar got seriously burnt with their first Perkins engine manufacturing venture in China in the 1990's.

Thank God, my 426 is a 1987 :)


 

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Delmer

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Black Honda engines are made in Thailand, maybe Malaysia too? Red Hondas are from Japan. The knock offs are 100% Chinese (mostly blue), i'll use them, but they're nowhere near a honda. Honda's start and run, time after time. China knock offs might start, might run, might fail in ten hours. A $100 engine with four bolts and a belt to mount fails in ten hours with a 20% probability, "tsaright, no problem, sarright!". If a six cylinder engine fails in ten hours, it's a PROBLEM.
 
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