Air Disc verses Drum-brakes

crane operator said:

No more log trucks? You just hiring contract trucks then to haul the logs?

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Yessir

I can't argue with any of that!

Truck Shop said:

The problem like most these days-is it's great until the reality of repair cost comes into play.
For a few truck operation I suppose it's fine---------until the repair cost come back into play.

For the extra 17 feet of stopping power at 60 the air disc provides, against the initial added
cost plus added repair costs it doesn't equate.
People like to say--{Well I like the extra stopping power so it's worth it}. That's all relative.
Accidents in most cases depend on timing-which is regulated by speed, twenty to thirty seconds
either way-all happenstance.

Since the air disc systems hit the market in 2013-truck related accidents {wrecks} which is a better
term have increased--for the simple fact Trucks are running closer together and if the sign says
65 for trucks they are going to push 70. I've had our own drivers tell me they feel a better sense
of security with disc so they push the envelope harder.

The reality of that thinking is--They lost the extra stopping distance at 65 mph plus upped the
inertia which will cause a much more spectacular wreck. Not very smart.

Had a Sargent with the Washington State Patrol tell me something while I was on a Major
wreck recovery/cleanup---What you are looking at is a wreck not a accident---a accident turns
into a wreck because accidents are avoidable, and 90% of accidents are avoidable but because
people are constantly overloading their ass wrecks like this are the norm.

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One bad thing about the disc is when a truck gets old and is resold its going to be a major expence to keep good brakes.

Old Doug said:

One bad thing about the disc is when a truck gets old and is resold its going to be a major expence to keep good brakes.

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You Doug are one of the very few that can foresee that issue. What I have been saying
all along.

There's a lot about modern trucks and equipment that is that way. I bet in 30 years there'll be more 60 y/o equipment running than 30 y/o one.....

Old Doug said:

One bad thing about the disc is when a truck gets old and is resold its going to be a major expence to keep good brakes.

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Likely won't matter because the whole truck will be ready to be thrown away. Between the rats nests of wires and all the computer garbage the trucks will be off the road far sooner then the old trucks that lasted until the frame, cab, or engine gave up.

Electronics are already taking many out, inability to repair existing processors as Will Not release the "Proprietary" data program settings. So as age the processors die and machines become non functional while Brake systems or Semi Auto transmissions great now will be Unobtanium on 10 years where only worth hauling to scrap yards.

Only one problem with the idea of running old trucks and the thought of all these mechanical Tier 1's
which are already 30 years old running 30 plus years from now.

#1 engine, transmission and drive axle parts. There are only so many cores that are rebuildable now.
Most requiring very major machine work as a last ditch effort to save a block. Cummins stopped supporting
the old 855's, Cummins doesn't want to continue to support engines 30 years old, they want to sell new.
It's not good for their business to keep selling old, outdated parts plus keep a large inventory of it.
Same with Cat. Cat will cut the cord also.

#2 and not related to construction business. If you looked at how many miles that are stacked on a
highway truck today compared to years back, these new trucks way out perform the old. In the early
90's if a truck saw 120K a year that was thought of as a lot. We've got drivers that run 160,000 a year plus.
In 4 years that truck is traded off.

#3 Fuel mileage, There isn't a tier 1 or tier 2 engine with manual transmission out there that can compete
with todays tier 4. We gross 100,000 running to Denver, Fargo, Seattle and Portland area south plus Tacoma
to Kalispell constantly like every day. All in mountainous region. The best any C-15 at 550hp or Series 60 at
550hp both at 1850 torque would ever get on a average in our fleet was 4.9.

The DD15's we have now average 6.2 with a DT12 automated transmission. There is no way in hell you
can find a driver that can compete with the perfect shift points/rpm that a computer can, the computer
doesn't waste fuel. Shifts faster, smoother and easier on drive train. Ever since we went to AMT
transmissions--------we haven't lost one U-Joint, only lost one rear drive and that was covered on warranty.

But the air disc brakes those are a problem. Because people don't understand the learning curve involved with
driving a AMT. Only a few do. The real problem is strictly the cost of replacement parts and labor.

The Cyborg Trucks are here-everyone needs to get use to it.

My business can't afford new. Its seasonal, 7500 miles or so per year on the better trucks, only a few thousand on the older trucks. Fuel mileage doesn't matter, dependability does. But replacement trucks for what I have now are very difficult to find. I went looking for another a couple of years ago and ended up with a Sterling. OK truck ruined by a junk dash.

Can you give a few pointers on the learning curve for driving a AMT?

terex herder said:

Can you give a few pointers on the learning curve for driving a AMT?

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Right here are all the Eaton videos for Eaton EEO Automated Manual Transmission.
Detroit DT12 is similar and there are videos for those also.

https://firstfleet.zendesk.com/hc/e...mins-Endurant-12-Speed-Automated-Transmission

terex herder said:

My business can't afford new

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There are a lot of people in your boat, when the parts dry up is when they will be forced to buy new.

I think OTR trucks are a different beast as age is what will kill a lot of the trucks, if the trucks running down the highway 100k miles a year or 30k miles in the city it will probably take a similar time for things like wires to rub through, so you can still get enough miles on them to pay them off before they are worthless. It's just the guys who buy the old OTR trucks to run in the city for another 10 years likely will end as the trucks won't be worth trying to keep on the road.

terex herder said:

My business can't afford new. Its seasonal, 7500 miles or so per year on the better trucks, only a few thousand on the older trucks. Fuel mileage doesn't matter, dependability does. But replacement trucks for what I have now are very difficult to find. I went looking for another a couple of years ago and ended up with a Sterling. OK truck ruined by a junk dash.

Can you give a few pointers on the learning curve for driving a AMT?

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Same boat here, I will keep my old truck until it's not worth fixing, which i'm hoping is long enough I won't need a heavy truck anymore, cab rust is probably the worst thing right now. I don't know if i'd want to take on a cab replacement if it came to that. It's costing me around $3k a year in repairs, probably see 6000 miles this year. I have zero complaints about that cost. A new truck with one electrical or emissions issue will cost a good portion of that. I am baffled how good of mileage mine gets, far better then a maxxforce 9 I know that.

The construction business, mainly small construction businesses will try to run the old stuff as long as possible
same with farmers. But eventually even they will have to move into this century.

One thing to consider is the funnel effect. Not near as many run old trucks as new ones. So even if these new techno trucks are having components fail out, junkyards might be able to supply them from others worn out or wrecked or junked with some unrelated failure. (If it is not one of those parts that changed with each model year. Even then there may be updates.)

Also, if it gets bad enough, some new company like a Hayes or Pacific will appear and make simple trucks again and they might sell pretty good. The electronic engines are pretty well understood at this point. But most people know that the electronic air conditioner and window regulator and dome light are just unnecessary and worthless, and there is money to be made in that segment if somebody chooses to open that segment.

I agree BV, but the supply chain has changed and so has scrap yard values. It's not uncommon to see
a price tag on a running take out B model Cat 400 at 13,000 plus. Because a yard is always going to charge
50% plus of oem rebuilt. As far as any new companies stepping in that will take some serious cash, and
not many investors with mounds of money want to invest in a new vehicle company. Takes too long
to see a return on investment.

The best bet of advice for driving an AMT is it is to remember that you are not smarter than that computer and to allow it to do its thing. The sooner you learn that the easier your life will be

Hallback said:

The best bet of advice for driving an AMT is it is to remember that you are not smarter than that computer and to allow it to do its thing. The sooner you learn that the easier your life will be

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They must have come a long way then, while it's different then a straight auto, 99% of the time i'm towing whether it's a pickup or heavy truck with an auto, i'm swearing at it because it's in the wrong gear. Either it's lugging and should be downshifting, or it's downshifting and screaming for no reason.

Truck Shop said:

The construction business, mainly small construction businesses will try to run the old stuff as long as possible
same with farmers. But eventually even they will have to move into this century.

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If I ever decide or am forced to upgrade I will make sure I buy at least a 2001 to get into this century