1963 Deere 820/2010 Crawler Loader - fuel/Roosa injector pump problem

iowahill · Jun 11, 2022

We picked this John Deere crawler loader with backhoe attachment at auction for a good price. As received it appeared to have relatively fresh oil and air filter and a poorly installed Delco alternator, but seemed otherwise all there. With a new battery, fresh fuel, and a temporary fan belt I was able to coax it to life with most of can of starting fluid. Lot's of black carbon and soot blew out the exhaust at first, but it settled down and seemed to run strong for about 10 minutes or so before I shut it down.

Next day I started it up using the glow plugs to warm things up, then with full throttle once again started and ran it for about 5 minutes before shutting it down and preparing to put on a new alternator and a rebuilt starter.
The following day I tried starting only to find that it appeared to be starving out for lack of fuel. I could keep it running with blasts of starting fluid but decided to look into the fuel filters and fuel lines.

Despite my assuming that the fuel filters had already been changed I found that both looked original and falling apart, and the Secondary filter had began to disintegrate with filter media coming out of the internal housing. I ordered up new filters and took the fuel filter assembly off for thorough cleaning and bead blasting of all passages. I removed and blew the fuel lines out with air and carb cleaner to ensure I had good flow all the way to the injector pump. No debris or contamination was found outside the fuel filter assembly and hoses were good and not leaking.

I pulled the fuel injector out (After doing so I still found it to be starving out, so decided to remove the injector pump (Roosa Master DBGVC 429 2DH) to remove the fuel inlet cover and inspect the cone filter and transfer pump, looking for any debris or contamination. Nothing was found. I replaced the O-rings and gasket, then re-installed the pump back to original timing per my match marks. I loosened to bleed screw on the injector case and the injector lines at the injectors to bleed.

It now starts at full throttle without need for glow plugs or starting fluid (it's over 95 here at the time!), but shuts down after about 5 seconds. I wait another 5 or 10 seconds and it starts up again only to starve out after 5 or so seconds. I've tried leaving the injector lines slightly loose in case there was still air in the lines but I still have the same issue.

I'm not sure if I have fully bled the injector pump, and still have good flow going into the pump. The tank has three valves: one is the main fuel, a second feeds fuel back up a riser in the tank for bypass, and the third is for the manual plunger primer on the dash. It appears to be a fuel flow problem but I'd like to get some feedback from others on this forum before running new fuel lines and other approaches.

Many thanks, -Tom Fischer

Delmer · Jun 11, 2022

Sounds like the classic roosa master return fitting plugging. the fuel line going to the left out the injection pump then elbowing up is the return to the tank, right? remove that whole fitting, so you're looking into the injection pump, clean that fitting out, it might have a glass check ball in there and look clean, but spray it out with water, air, brake cleaner. See if it runs longer. You can run it without the fittings in place, at least on a horizontal application, it will leak all over. If it has "mouse turds" it will need a rebuild.

iowahill · Jun 11, 2022

Delmer said:
Sounds like the classic roosa master return fitting plugging. the fuel line going to the left out the injection pump then elbowing up is the return to the tank, right? remove that whole fitting, so you're looking into the injection pump, clean that fitting out, it might have a glass check ball in there and look clean, but spray it out with water, air, brake cleaner. See if it runs longer. You can run it without the fittings in place, at least on a horizontal application, it will leak all over. If it has "mouse turds" it will need a rebuild.

I pulled the return hose off while trying after cleaning all fittings and checking for fuel to the pump. The inlet fitting has the tee branch for bypass and screws into the top cover of the pump which has a cone shaped screen before heading into the transfer pump section. All was/is clean with no signs of debris or contamination. Fuel is fresh red diesel and clean. I'll try running a hose directly from the tank to the fuel inlet and see if that tells me anything. Thanks for the feedback! -Tom

Delmer · Jun 11, 2022

Did you pull the return hose off, or the whole fitting?

thepumpguysc · Jun 12, 2022

U keep talking about the “inlet” being clean..
We need u to focus on the outlet..
That return fitting is a VERY OLD STYLE and probably has a wire running thru it to limit the return fuel quantity..
I suspect someone cut out the wire, which allowed all the flex ring material to wad up in the return line where it meets #1 INJECTOR return “T”..
To test this, remove the return. connector COMPLETELY from the “side” of the pump..actually it’s the top of the pump in a horizontal position.. SIDE in a vertical position..
U can grab a barbed fitting from the guys in the shop, finger tighten it in the cover and run a hose to a 5 gallon jug..
NOW start the engine.. if it keeps running I was right..
If it shuts off, we’ll start over..
Good luck.

mg2361 · Jun 12, 2022

This fitting is the one TPG mentions.

Willie B · Jun 12, 2022

My memory stinks, but my John Deere 410C backhoe had a very similar pump & plumbing. I had a thread a while back. New fuel filter, it'd run strong 5 minutes, then stall.
The Stanadyne (Roosa Master) pump had a "flex ring" coming apart & blocking the check ball in the return line. It ran fine with ball removed, but I'm told you risk it running away (over revving)

thepumpguysc · Jun 12, 2022

Willie, u haven’t fixed that yet.!!??
Just keep an ear on the rpm’s..
I can’t remember who it was but they had their pump redone and it still shut off after a few seconds..
I walked them they blowing out the return line back to the tank..
THAT worked for a few.. then it started shutting off AGAIN..
So he started taking the return line apart .. he got to the part where the injector return line “T”‘d into the pump return..& heading back to the tank.. and sent me a pic..
It was cram packed w black broken flex ring material..& bit by bit it was breaking free from the injector line and plugging up the main return line, shutting the engine down..

I’ve said it before & most of u guys know this by now but there’s always a new guy to enlighten..
“If u can’t get fuel out of the pump, u can’t get fuel into the pump..”
So once the return get clogged, u can’t get fuel in..and the engine shuts down..
THATS WHY, I want u to remove the fitting and run the return into a 5 gal. bucket.. bypassing the return line all together..
I hope this makes sense..
Good luck

Willie B · Jun 12, 2022

thepumpguysc said:
Willie, u haven’t fixed that yet.!!??
Just keep an ear on the rpm’s..
I can’t remember who it was but they had their pump redone and it still shut off after a few seconds..
I walked them they blowing out the return line back to the tank..
THAT worked for a few.. then it started shutting off AGAIN..
So he started taking the return line apart .. he got to the part where the injector return line “T”‘d into the pump return..& heading back to the tank.. and sent me a pic..
It was cram packed w black broken flex ring material..& bit by bit it was breaking free from the injector line and plugging up the main return line, shutting the engine down..

I’ve said it before & most of u guys know this by now but there’s always a new guy to enlighten..
“If u can’t get fuel out of the pump, u can’t get fuel into the pump..”
So once the return get clogged, u can’t get fuel in..and the engine shuts down..
THATS WHY, I want u to remove the fitting and run the return into a 5 gal. bucket.. bypassing the return line all together..
I hope this makes sense..
Good luck

No, my son found a local guy rebuilt it at the time. He came to the tractor on a bitter cold day & broke off a screw, so he took the pump with him. I sold that tractor last year running fine.
What you describe is exactly what I had.

iowahill · Jun 12, 2022

mg2361 said:
This fitting is the one TPG mentions.

View attachment 261523

That fitting is called "fitting, vent (Item 119 in the parts diagram, original p/n AT17243T in the original parts manual), and "Connector Assembly, return line (new p/n 15888) in the current Standyne Roosa Master parts system. I had my pump shop print out the new parts diagram and list for me which is quite different in layout from the original manual:

Delmer · Jun 12, 2022

AND??? Did you remove the fitting, so that you can see into the pump? and did it run without shutting off?

iowahill · Jun 12, 2022

Delmer said:
AND??? Did you remove the fitting, so that you can see into the pump? and did it run without shutting off?

Just did and it runs just fine with good throttle control all the way through its range. The "vent fitting" was clear of any debris. I suspect that when I removed the flex hose running up to the vent valve and riser under the tank that I had damaged the the hose and caused a blockage (possibly at the valve) that caused the problem. I cut the old brass swivel fittings off the old hose and found that 5/16 o.d. plastic fuel line fits snugly over the stub on the modified swivel fitting. So I ran one end of the hose from the pump relief outlet directly back to the tank (see photos below).

Which brings up the question as to whether the amount of free fuel flow is normal, and whether the relief fitting with its pin restriction creates a back pressure inside the pump. Nothing has been readjusted after replacing gaskets and O rings, and as I mentioned early on, the tractor ran fine for two days until the fuel starvation problem arose. I need to pull the riser and shutoff valve to check for blockage but will try reconnecting back to the pump first to see what happens.

The pictures below show what I did:

iowahill · Jun 12, 2022

Another shot of free fuel flow from the pump relief at 1000 rpm. It doesn't change substantially at higher or lower rpm's. Does this look normal for free-flow?...

iowahill · Jun 12, 2022

Willie B said:
My memory stinks, but my John Deere 410C backhoe had a very similar pump & plumbing. I had a thread a while back. New fuel filter, it'd run strong 5 minutes, then stall.
The Stanadyne (Roosa Master) pump had a "flex ring" coming apart & blocking the check ball in the return line. It ran fine with ball removed, but I'm told you risk it running away (over revving)

Depending on date of manufacture, the Roosa pump differed with some parts from s/n 29001 on. Mine is a 1963 build and may not have the original motor or pump. The relief fitting on mine has a free-floating restrictor pin rather than a check valve. Here's a photo:

Thanks again to all of you who have helped me figure this one out! -Tom

thepumpguysc · Jun 12, 2022

The current p# of the return fitting is Stanadyne 15830.. those r the people who made the pump..
Stanadyne bought out RoosaMaster..
U need to get rid of the fitting w the barb and run a fitting straight into the pump..
And back blow the rest of the lines going back to the tank..
Good luck

iowahill · Jun 12, 2022

thepumpguysc said:
The current p# of the return fitting is Stanadyne 15830.. those r the people who made the pump..
Stanadyne bought out RoosaMaster..
U need to get rid of the fitting w the barb and run a fitting straight into the pump..
And back blow the rest of the lines going back to the tank..
Good luck

Thanks for the assistance and guidance in solving my problem. So if I'm clear on your advice the relief fitting isn't necessary? The barb fitting is what the injector relief line connects to and would be disconnected from the fuel circuit. -Tom

Welder Dave · Jun 13, 2022

Hopefully using almost a full can of starting fluid to get it going didn't cause other problems.

iowahill · Jun 13, 2022

Welder Dave said:
Hopefully using almost a full can of starting fluid to get it going didn't cause other problems.

No problems as the starting fluid was used sparingly in short blasts. It runs strong and starts with just a short glow plug session, then full throttle until it is up and running. The new starter made a huge difference in cranking too. Now I have to figure out why the tracks are locked up solid. I suspect that the steering bands might be rusted or seized onto the drums from a long period of sitting out in the open. That also might explain why the seat assembly was taken off when we first got it. One step at a time!

iowahill · Jun 13, 2022

iowahill said:
No problems as the starting fluid was used sparingly in short blasts. It runs strong and starts with just a short glow plug session, then full throttle until it is up and running. The new starter made a huge difference in cranking too. Now I have to figure out why the tracks are locked up solid. The shuttle seems to be working in forward and reverse as the motor begins to stall when put into gear. I suspect that the steering bands might be rusted or seized onto the drums from a long period of sitting out in the open. That also might explain why the seat assembly was taken off when we first got it. One step at a time!

thepumpguysc · Jun 13, 2022

Removing the return connector and installing an open barb fitting is strictly for diagnostic purposes ONLY.. u DO NEED to install p# 15830..

1963 Deere 820/2010 Crawler Loader - fuel/Roosa injector pump problem

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