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Right to Repair

Birken Vogt

Charter Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2003
Messages
5,305
Location
Grass Valley, Ca
With Deere, it was always that the customer had to buy the software from the dealer but the dealer had to get approval from Mother Deere before selling it to a customer. And the answer was usually no. Now that the heat is on it looks like they have changed that policy. But you still have to fork over piles of money for something that should be simple.
 

Truck Shop

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2015
Messages
16,538
Location
WWW.
This thread is very interesting. And like some of the older ones on here I have witnessed years of design
changes and all the electronics that came with it. I do some parameter changes, but only things to do
with idle time and road speed {cruise settings} and trailer abs. The rest is under warranty-Most problems
seem to be engine/transmission/emission communication within those three units. It's on the dealers dime
because rarely is it a simple stroke of keys that correct the issue. Usually problems won't duplicate and
codes are cleared-third time is a charm-nothing more than bad connection. Which John C. could show them
how to find. But these same people lack basic/skills understanding manual trouble shooting. What problem
mechanically caused issues electronically. It does happen and happens a lot. I see it on the dealer work
orders that come in.

Three weeks ago I get a call from a local farm implement shop. They had a farmers truck that they
admitted they had in the shop for 3 days trying to make the jakes work on a old small cam 350.
asked if I had a idea or could come look. I looked and pointed to the oil suction hose.
 

Birken Vogt

Charter Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2003
Messages
5,305
Location
Grass Valley, Ca
From the Sullivan electronic T/S book. Mechanical problems are quick to diagnose, long to fix. Electrical problems the reverse.

Spend lots of time staring at the schematics and reading the theory of operation. That is if they bother to provide the theory of operation. Then poke at the harness in various places until the problem is found. Customers don't like to see you reading books. They expect that you know it all already.

Some customers have no problem paying some huge corporation thousands of dollars to replace a part that was poorly designed but out of warranty. But to pay their neighbor the same to use his brain to figure out something electronic. The have a hard time with.
 

JD955SC

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2011
Messages
1,349
Location
The South
Keep in mind that right to repair only means making service information, software, communication adapters, and special tools available for purchase. Being that there is no true standard communication protocols (other than J1939) like OBDII in equipment, each manufacture has their own software and such. The only reason you can get cheap code readers and affordable third party service info like Mitchell’s and All Data is because of the OBDII standard and the huge demand due to the sheer number of vehicles. If you had to purchase the manufacture provided service info and software and Comm adapters it would be a similar cost as to what we see with JD and Cat and so on. The market simply isn’t big enough to justify third party solutions to the extent that the auto world sees.
 

John C.

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
12,865
Location
Northwest
Occupation
Machinery & Equipment Appraiser
All that can be negotiated at time of purchase. The common theme before congress and the courts is that Deere is not providing any means to repair a combine in the middle of harvest other than dealer employees and equipment. So who is lying?
 

AzIron

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2016
Messages
1,541
Location
Az
All that can be negotiated at time of purchase. The common theme before congress and the courts is that Deere is not providing any means to repair a combine in the middle of harvest other than dealer employees and equipment. So who is lying?
You cant negotiate squat on service advisor and cat wants a monthly fee as well and to a small operation it gets expensive in my experience dealers dont easily volunteer info unless you are asking specific questions

All this stuff is geared to bigger companies and not small outfits they either want you continually paying payments for warranty or subscriptions the goal is all about continuous revenue streams and market share and parts dont create market share
 

BigWrench55

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
1,176
Location
Somewhere
I called my local cat dealer and asked about getting setup for E.T.
They wanted to know how much business I was doing. How much in parts I was buying. A list of all my customers. They wanted to know everything. I questioned them about the need for the information. And I told that they wanted to know all this to make sure I wasn't working their customers equipment. To which I replied that it was none of their business. And as far as "your customers " goes. You don't own the market or the customers. If they want me work on their equipment. Then that's between me and them and they can have anyone they choose to repair their machines. I was then told arrogantly that it's their software and they can pick and choose who can use. I reminded him again that it's not their software it is caterpillars. They don't own the market nor do they own customers. Naturally I didn't get access to the software. But that's the point of right to repair. I should be able to get the software without having to show the dealer anything other than I can pay for the access. Not everyone is allowed to get access to this stuff. And equipment owners are tired of paying dealer prices and in a lot of cases on the job training. (Parts changers ). All they want is for someone to show up in a reasonable amount of time and diagnose it accurately. And make the repair quickly. These dealers are trying to corner the market, but they don't have the man power to keep up with demand. So the equipment owners are forced to wait for weeks to get someone with a laptop to show up and get the machine out of derate. Dealerships are failing to see another revenue source by having independents out there buying more parts. Or selling a larger more complicated job for the dealership commission free. Because they don't have the tooling or experience to take on a job like that.
 

AzIron

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2016
Messages
1,541
Location
Az
I called my local cat dealer and asked about getting setup for E.T.
They wanted to know how much business I was doing. How much in parts I was buying. A list of all my customers. They wanted to know everything. I questioned them about the need for the information. And I told that they wanted to know all this to make sure I wasn't working their customers equipment. To which I replied that it was none of their business. And as far as "your customers " goes. You don't own the market or the customers. If they want me work on their equipment. Then that's between me and them and they can have anyone they choose to repair their machines. I was then told arrogantly that it's their software and they can pick and choose who can use. I reminded him again that it's not their software it is caterpillars. They don't own the market nor do they own customers. Naturally I didn't get access to the software. But that's the point of right to repair. I should be able to get the software without having to show the dealer anything other than I can pay for the access. Not everyone is allowed to get access to this stuff. And equipment owners are tired of paying dealer prices and in a lot of cases on the job training. (Parts changers ). All they want is for someone to show up in a reasonable amount of time and diagnose it accurately. And make the repair quickly. These dealers are trying to corner the market, but they don't have the man power to keep up with demand. So the equipment owners are forced to wait for weeks to get someone with a laptop to show up and get the machine out of derate. Dealerships are failing to see another revenue source by having independents out there buying more parts. Or selling a larger more complicated job for the dealership commission free. Because they don't have the tooling or experience to take on a job like that.
For the dealer to make money on parts they would have to have them in the first place

Cat and deere here have the arrogance to tell me I am so fortunate they let me buy machines from them
 

mg2361

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2016
Messages
5,055
Location
Pennsylvania
Occupation
Equipment Mechanic
Can the operator talk to the dealer who can use the telematics in the machine to tell the operator what is wrong?

Yes, sort of. I can perform DTC checks. I can clear DTC's and I can perform recordings of all the parameters during operation, if the machine is in running condition. I cannot view readings "live" unless another tech is there and connected. I can view through his laptop.

I can connect to the machine remotely (again, only if they have JDLink) and perform a recording of all the parameters with either the DTC as the trigger for a recording or a particular parameter as the trigger to start the recording. Then when I am notified that the recording is complete I view it. If the guy has an issue with a sensor or he has a misfire I can't necessarily tell you what the failure is but I can tell which "system" is mostly likely the cause. Just like being there, a sensor code does not mean a bad sensor or a fuel rail pressure mismatch code does not mean a bad SCV.

However, Deere has been pushing in advertisements that we can diagnose your machine remotely and come out with the correct parts the first trip to get you back up and running. Hmm, just never seems to work out that way.:confused:
 
Last edited:

mg2361

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2016
Messages
5,055
Location
Pennsylvania
Occupation
Equipment Mechanic
I should be able to get the software without having to show the dealer anything other than I can pay for the access.

Even Deere dealers decide what level of access a customer can have with Service Advisor. It is manuals only, or it can have full functionality.....almost. I just read the fine print and "full functionality" is Tests and Calibrations (but not all of them due to emission reasons), No Service Advisor Remote (like I mentioned above), No programming of controllers, no viewing of Solutions (Deere speak for bulletins), and no access to excavators (if it has a Deere engine you can access that engine only).
 

John C.

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
12,865
Location
Northwest
Occupation
Machinery & Equipment Appraiser
Is there no way to troubleshoot a Deere Ag machine without a laptop? Is there no diagnostic access through a panel?
 

mg2361

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2016
Messages
5,055
Location
Pennsylvania
Occupation
Equipment Mechanic
Is there no way to troubleshoot a Deere Ag machine without a laptop? Is there no diagnostic access through a panel?

I cannot speak for AG, but most of our C&F machines have diagnostic capabilities through the monitor of some sort. Some machines offer way more information than others. But for things like engine emissions, you need the software (for now).
 

Randy88

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2009
Messages
2,149
Location
iowa
Not sure what's going on, just two nights ago the news had a segment on about the right to repair and the lawsuits with Deere, since deere is based in my state and in the town the news broadcast came from. They claimed the president of the United States gave an executive order to in favor of the farmers so time wasn't wasted in the courts to allow people to fix their own stuff, then they went on to say, with that executive order deere claimed it wasn't their fault none of the computer diagnostic equipment wasn't available to the public, it was the places they get the diagnostic equipment from that couldn't provide it due to the shortage of computer parts to put the laptops together in the first place. Now take that for what's it worth, since I can't keep up to date on our presidents executive orders he passes out like candy at a Halloween party and deere does nothing but pass the buck and put blame on everyone else. But right now, maybe instead of worrying about protecting Deere's rights, maybe they should protect their company somewhat and actually make parts for machines they have down all over the country and world if they plan to remain in business much longer anyhow and actually plan to sell anyone another machine of any shape size or form, when those people have enough green colored equipment waiting on parts now, costing the owners thousands if not millions in delays every day, don't think the news was quite accurate in reporting the losses associated with Deere and who's losses those were exactly, but the upside is, they do a great job of reporting the profits earned every quarter, so we at least have that as a positive, right??
 

Randy88

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2009
Messages
2,149
Location
iowa
John, right now, I'm not sure if the diagnostic equipment is the main concern, since most of the parts needed to fix the ag sector machines are not available anyhow according to all those locally that own them and can't get them to run for this spring and are looking for a different machine of a different color to replace the dead deere that's awaiting Santa Claus to bring the parts to fix it.

I'm also pretty sure a whole lot of people are rethinking the whole concept of buying new or newer equipment, the million dollar question being asked right now is, what color and what age of equipment do I try to buy and what's the price going to be to get it so they have some equipment to run this year and actually get something done. There's also a whole lot of people who traded off for new, only to find out, there old one got sold and new never showed up and are now without one completely, that includes combines, planters, sprayers, tractors, tillage, augers, excavators, backhoes, pretty much you name if, I've heard about it, so right now, until the new one shows up, keep the old one locked in your shed and when the new one gets delivered, then let the old one go out of your possession.
 

JD955SC

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2011
Messages
1,349
Location
The South
Not sure what's going on, just two nights ago the news had a segment on about the right to repair and the lawsuits with Deere, since deere is based in my state and in the town the news broadcast came from. They claimed the president of the United States gave an executive order to in favor of the farmers so time wasn't wasted in the courts to allow people to fix their own stuff, then they went on to say, with that executive order deere claimed it wasn't their fault none of the computer diagnostic equipment wasn't available to the public, it was the places they get the diagnostic equipment from that couldn't provide it due to the shortage of computer parts to put the laptops together in the first place. Now take that for what's it worth, since I can't keep up to date on our presidents executive orders he passes out like candy at a Halloween party and deere does nothing but pass the buck and put blame on everyone else. But right now, maybe instead of worrying about protecting Deere's rights, maybe they should protect their company somewhat and actually make parts for machines they have down all over the country and world if they plan to remain in business much longer anyhow and actually plan to sell anyone another machine of any shape size or form, when those people have enough green colored equipment waiting on parts now, costing the owners thousands if not millions in delays every day, don't think the news was quite accurate in reporting the losses associated with Deere and who's losses those were exactly, but the upside is, they do a great job of reporting the profits earned every quarter, so we at least have that as a positive, right??

The media is there to fan the flames of conflict, that is their one and only purpose. “Record Profits” and “Windfall Profits” are their favorite drums to beat but no one ever questions the “record profits” of the media, politicians, etc.
 

John C.

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
12,865
Location
Northwest
Occupation
Machinery & Equipment Appraiser
Do you have a link to that television station? I haven't been able to find that executive order anywhere either. If you have some info, I'll do the research to confirm or deny it.
 

mg2361

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2016
Messages
5,055
Location
Pennsylvania
Occupation
Equipment Mechanic
Do you have a link to that television station?

Here is the executive order. The order for right to repair is in the Agriculture section. Below is the text from it:

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing...romoting-competition-in-the-american-economy/

Corporate consolidation even affects farmers’ ability to repair their own equipment or to use independent repair shops. Powerful equipment manufacturers—such as tractor manufacturers—use proprietary repair tools, software, and diagnostics to prevent third-parties from performing repairs. For example, when certain tractors detect a failure, they cease to operate until a dealer unlocks them. That forcers farmers to pay dealer rates for repairs that they could have made themselves, or that an independent repair shop could have done more cheaply.

In the Order, the President:
  • Encourages the FTC to limit powerful equipment manufacturers from restricting people’s ability to use independent repair shops or do DIY repairs—such as when tractor companies block farmers from repairing their own tractors.
 
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