Dump Truck Advice

We currently have a Ford L8000 that requires a CDL to run. Problem is that it has been sketchy lately hiring/keeping someone with a CDL. I think I want to get a F650/F750 and keep it registered at 26,000 so we can at least always have an option to use this truck with out having a CDL. I am not super familiar with these trucks. It would be nice to spend $20,000 - $30,000 for a used one. I am thinking a F650 since we will be at 26,000 anyway. I also want to have air brakes instead of hydraulic. I know that these came with various engines with the 5.9 Cummins both in 12V and 24V being a pretty common engine. I am looking for opinions on the best year/engine combination.

My $.02 -

Owned several medium duty trucks - dumps, one hooklift and a flatbed.

1999 4700 DT466 with 6+1 trans - good truck, comfortable to drive but no power house, had a 14' flatbed dump The 4000 series Internationals cabs are very driver friendly.


2003 4300 DT466 with 6+1 trans - good truck, updated version of the 4700 but less reliable pertaining to the electronics in the cab and the A/C system. It had a 14' flat dump with fixed sides.

2007 Hino 268 with Hino inline 6, Aisin auto with a hooklift. This was by far and away the best medium truck I've owned. Drove from AL to SC to get the hook lift put on. It was powerful and quick, a very nice truck to drive.

2005 F650 6.7 Cummins, Allison auto with a hook lift. The worst of the bunch IMO as far as power, driveability and reliability. That truck had the issue with the fuel tanks delaminating which was a nightmare finding a Ford dealership to work on medium duty trucks under warranty.

1999 4700 DT466, 5sp with flatbed that's our current service truck. Top speed of 55 MPH loaded, unloaded, flat ground or down hill. Reliable but not much on power or speed. Currently the only medium truck we own.

I am a Ford guy from 150's to 600's but my loyalty stops at the 650. There are better options in the medium duty range out there than Ford IMHO.

The newer Allison trans are good at getting the power out of the smaller medium duty engines and easier to drive. If you are looking at the older Internationals the 6+1 gives you enough gears to get down the road at a reasonable speed. Don't buy a 466 with a 5sp - trust me.

Air brakes require a cdl hence the air brake portion of the cdl test

As far as single bob tails for as cheap as I can hire any size dump truck here I cant own one

AzIron said:

Air brakes require a cdl hence the air brake portion of the cdl test

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Have the Feds changed the rule or is that an AZ law? The Feds use to go by GVW for CDL requirements and the air brake test/certification was only if a truck or a truck a trailer combo was over 26K GCVW.

Unless the Feds have changed it, here in AL a truck 25.5K GVW not pulling a trailer with or without air brakes didn't require a B. A good many of those Penske and Ryder box trucks in my area are 25.5K GVW with air brakes and anyone with a regular license can drive on.

I might need to look it up but I seen a ticket issued for a lack of air brake endorsement and that was not a cheap fine

CDL is required for air brakes. And it does not matter what weight you register the truck. If the factory rated it at 26,001 or higher, you will need a CDL CLass B. Those rental trucks are spec'ed with hydraulic brakes.

JTWAT said:

CDL is required for air brakes. And it does not matter what weight you register the truck. If the factory rated it at 26,001 or higher, you will need a CDL CLass B. Those rental trucks are spec'ed with hydraulic brakes.

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Not correct according to the Feds -

https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/registrat...#Classes-Licenses-Commercial-Learners-Permits


States can be more restrictive with their CDL rules, FL might be more restrictive.

Also they spec non-CDL air braked trucks like this one in AL all the time. No CDL required to drive this truck here in AL. 26,000 GVW with air brakes.

https://www.penskeusedtrucks.com/tr...medium-duty-box-trucks/unit-686012/particle-1

Looking at the FMCSA link they call out an A, B, C License, but an operators License is not a C license, to drive air brakes under 26001 lbs you need a CDL C at a minimum to have the Air Brake Cert, similar to being a limousine driver getting a class C liscence to attach a passenger endorsement to.

dieseldog5.9 said:

Looking at the FMCSA link they call out an A, B, C License, but an operators License is not a C license, to drive air brakes under 26001 lbs you need a CDL C at a minimum to have the Air Brake Cert, similar to being a limousine driver getting a class C liscence to attach a passenger endorsement to.

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Not according to the Feds or I am reading it wrong -

Class C: Any single vehicle, or combination of vehicles, that does not meet the definition of Class A or Class B, but is either designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver, or is transporting material that has been designated as hazardous under 49 U.S.C. 5103 and is required to be placarded under subpart F of 49 CFR Part 172 or is transporting any quantity of a material listed as a select agent or toxin in 42 CFR Part 73.

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Class C license only refers to 16 passengers or haz mat not falling under the GVW requirements of a Class A or B.

Air brake is a restriction -

If the driver does not pass the Air Brakes Knowledge Test, does not correctly identify the air brake system components, does not properly conduct an air brake systems check, or does not take the Skills test in a vehicle with a full air brake system, the driver must have an "L" no full air brake restriction placed on their license.

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The L restriction for example is for a hot shot F550 pulling an 18K gooseneck trailer with would require a Class per the GCWR of the truck and trailer. If a driver took their CDL test in that set up they would have a L restriction on their CDL license.

A 26,000 GVW straight truck with air brakes does not require a CDL per the Feds. Anyone with a valid drivers license can drive this type of truck according to the Federal rules now states can be more restrictive and most are.

CM1995 said:

A 26,000 GVW straight truck with air brakes does not require a CDL per the Feds.

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That's correct because they had to draw a line in the sand at some point. Plus the vehicle could be either/or
on which brakes it was manufactured with.

First I would say even the DOT themselves don't agree on the rules and there interpretation.

Second the way the FMSCA manual is not clear, and leaves alot of gray area for us to interpret, Case in point, I have 27 years in the trucking industry, from my impression of both Truck Shop and CM1995 they have more experience than that, and we all do not agree.

Setting up equipment for buisness in the gray area is a recipe for confusion, agrivation, and some tickets.

And I respectfully disagree, It is illegal to drive air brakes on an operators liscense alone.

Well the industry such as Wabco is looking at air disc option for a 450 class and up. Other wise you would
have granny down taking a CDL for her RV. Which she probably should anyway.

dieseldog5.9 said:

And I respectfully disagree, It is illegal to drive air brakes on an operators liscense alone.

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Where does it say that in the Federal regs? State laws can be more restrictive and many are which adds to the muddied waters of the CDL rule conversation.

AzIron said:

Air brakes require a cdl hence the air brake portion of the cdl test

As far as single bob tails for as cheap as I can hire any size dump truck here I cant own one

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Are you certain about the air brake? a few years back I researched it in VT. I had an air brake truck registered at 25999. The law here contradicts. In one place it requires CDL, in another place there is a specific exemption.

In my case there was a trailer involved, CDL required.

I had a Chevy C65 titled 25999, nameplate 27500. I needed CDL for the trailer, as mentioned, DOT enforcement don't agree about under 26000 & air brakes.

My Chevy was gas engine, I wanted more power. I searched forever. Everything on the market was a town truck. In the northeast, these trucks are rust buckets. I ended up with a fire truck. Converting to a dump proved not to be simple, but I got less rust than a retired town truck.

Mine had 31000 on the clock. Miles pile up in these trucks when they sit idling The pump adds miles. 635 hours on the pump. I'll estimate 10,000 miles, the rest pump engaged to keep it from freezing. Small town pumpers spend VERY little time actually pumping, most is in gear so nothing freezes.

I think the regulations are not written well. They reference needing to take an air brake test for class A and B which is over 26000 lbs. So running Air brakes requires a test, and special knowledge to drive them that an operators license doesn't cover.

I get what you are saying, as it is written it could be considered a loop hole. You would get a ticket here driving a 25000lbs truck with air brakes on an operators license.

You also will get a ticket for a rake in the back of a 1 ton without a strap on it.

dieseldog5.9 said:

I think the regulations are not written well. They reference needing to take an air brake test for class A and B which is over 26000 lbs. So running Air brakes requires a test, and special knowledge to drive them that an operators license doesn't cover.

I get what you are saying, as it is written it could be considered a loop hole. You would get a ticket here driving a 25000lbs truck with air brakes on an operators license.

You also will get a ticket for a rake in the back of a 1 ton without a strap on it.

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Yes & God help you if your license plate light is dirty, you might go to jail.

And I have stated several times-the laws should be the same in every state. The federal regulations are just that
and each state having it's own regulations. The laws should be standardized.

Anyone driving a half ton pickup should have a CDL. A loose shovel is ok but rakes need system seven chains. lol

It's all about revenue for each state.
Of anyone should have had their CDL yanked it was me-Three Log Book Mike.

It doesn't matter what weight the truck is registered to haul. What matters is the data plate on the door jam. 26,000#, no CDL. 26,001#, CDL required. And a few years ago, they rewrote the rule to state the heavier of the data plate or actual loaded weight. So if you have a 26,000# data plate and weigh 26,001#, you also have to have a CDL.

dieseldog5.9 said:

I think the regulations are not written well. They reference needing to take an air brake test for class A and B which is over 26000 lbs. So running Air brakes requires a test, and special knowledge to drive them that an operators license doesn't cover.

I get what you are saying, as it is written it could be considered a loop hole. You would get a ticket here driving a 25000lbs truck with air brakes on an operators license.

You also will get a ticket for a rake in the back of a 1 ton without a strap on it.

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It's not a loophole on the federal level, it's how the fed. regulations are written. Might be old and

If you can get a ticket for driving an air braked 25,000 GVW straight truck in NH that is a state law which can be more restrictive.

My take would be: Juice brakes suck, air brakes work well. Verify with the state of Pennsylvania DOT before purchasing a truck below 26000lbs with air brakes and putting person with a regular operators license in it.