Hough H80B source for parts

[Minnesota Eric]

I always liked to see a machine sit at least over night without loosing, say 25 psi. Actually recall an old Euclid I worked on that we parked the truck and pulled engine for overhaul and when we came back to install engine it was still showing air pressure on gauge before stating rebuilt engine!

Kshansen,

It appears that my powers clusters are shelled. I have air leaking through the air pistons into the master cylinders hissing all the way up to the remote reservoir. My power clusters appear to be old Wagner 840 with a 4"x7" air piston. I have not removed them to confirm the master cylinder bore and stroke. I'm being quoted anywhere from $1400 all the way down to $530 each. $1400 gets me OEM rebuilds and $530 gets me an equivalent that is nowadays used on thripple axle trailers and the like and is sold by a company that got tired of trying to track down old Wagner cores.

A rebuilt OEM vender has pushed back claiming that the modern equivalent will not work because the master cylinder is different (as in bore and stroke) but the Brake company with the aftermarket solution says that there are only about six different versions of these things, and is confident of the sizing given the known size of the air piston housing.

Can your experience shed any light on this?

Thanks!

Modern equivalent https://www.fleet-products.ca/65-840-air-hydraulic-actuator/

OEM vender https://www.andersonequip.com/web/files/prod/web/parts/PN-KAC_1126328C92.html

Auto parts store: https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/...6f8/brakebest-hd-power-cluster/a88862/2543528

 

[kshansen]

Can't say anything exact but I would be wanting to know the bore of the hydraulic side and the working diameter of the air side to be able to get an idea if the ratios between the original and the replacement were close. Would also need to take into account the stroke of each unit.

Also I would be tempted to remove and disassemble at least one of the power clusters to see if there was a chance of just rebuilding yours. As I recall the main seal on the air side is a large oring and seem to recall a felt strip wiper as well. If the can for the air side is not badly rusted there is a chance you could just reseal that part. As for the hydraulic side again if not rusted and it cleans up with a little work with a brake hone there is a good chance you may be able to source the rubber parts from a brake shop. At least it used to be possible to buy the rubber cups or kits for those master cylinders. I'd be interested to know if there is a casting number on the hydraulic cylinder.

 

[Minnesota Eric]

Can't say anything exact but I would be wanting to know the bore of the hydraulic side and the working diameter of the air side to be able to get an idea if the ratios between the original and the replacement were close. Would also need to take into account the stroke of each unit.

Also I would be tempted to remove and disassemble at least one of the power clusters to see if there was a chance of just rebuilding yours. As I recall the main seal on the air side is a large oring and seem to recall a felt strip wiper as well. If the can for the air side is not badly rusted there is a chance you could just reseal that part. As for the hydraulic side again if not rusted and it cleans up with a little work with a brake hone there is a good chance you may be able to source the rubber parts from a brake shop. At least it used to be possible to buy the rubber cups or kits for those master cylinders. I'd be interested to know if there is a casting number on the hydraulic cylinder.

The aftermarket company suggested the same: break the cluster down to inspect the master cylinder to confirm. The Master they use has a 7" bore x 1-3/4" diameter. The air cylinder is the same as a 7x4 but not a Wagner.

Casting numbers are currently hidden by the mount and it is about to rain for the next four days or I'd take a cluster out to inspect on the bench. At this point I don't have a source for rebuilding parts. I was going to call Wagner today for support but got interrupted at every chance I had to call.

Meanwhile, this conversation is ahead of where I'm at in my videos.

 

[kshansen]

The aftermarket company suggested the same: break the cluster down to inspect the master cylinder to confirm. The Master they use has a 7" bore x 1-3/4" diameter. The air cylinder is the same as a 7x4 but not a Wagner.

I think you have thing a bit mixed up there or I'm just reading it wrong. I would say the hydraulic cylinder(master) would be the 1 3/4 inch bore and the air cylinder would be 7 inch diameter.

Just doing a little highschool math tells me that the 7 inch air cylinder has a surface area of 38.48 sq.in. and the 1 3/4 inch master cylinder has a surface area of 2.41 sq.in. Divide those two out and I come up with a 16 to 1 ratio. So at full air pressure of 120 psi a full brake application would result in 1,920 psi going to the brakes.

Just wish I had this to work out about ten years ago. We had a local brake shop with one if not the best brake men around he could have redesigned your brakes in a matter of a few minutes in his head. Unfortunately he passed away about 10 years ago. One time we had an old Euclid truck with the most complicated air brake system and he came out and drew up a sketch and a list of parts that gave that truck better brakes than the factory did and it was very inexpensive to boot!

 

[kshansen]

Just found this that might work if your cylinder is not rebuildable
https://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Master-Cylinder-Piston-Casting/dp/B07LGJ1XMD

And if your master cylinder bore is not rusted beyond use it may be worth getting one of these kits to see if the parts match:
https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/UBP175?searchCategory=c3.s3&searchIndex=Universal

And NAPA does list a few others but that one looked close to what I recall Hough/Wagner brakes to use!

 

[Minnesota Eric]

I think you have thing a bit mixed up there or I'm just reading it wrong. I would say the hydraulic cylinder(master) would be the 1 3/4 inch bore and the air cylinder would be 7 inch diameter.

Just doing a little highschool math tells me that the 7 inch air cylinder has a surface area of 38.48 sq.in. and the 1 3/4 inch master cylinder has a surface area of 2.41 sq.in. Divide those two out and I come up with a 16 to 1 ratio. So at full air pressure of 120 psi a full brake application would result in 1,920 psi going to the brakes.

Just wish I had this to work out about ten years ago. We had a local brake shop with one if not the best brake men around he could have redesigned your brakes in a matter of a few minutes in his head. Unfortunately he passed away about 10 years ago. One time we had an old Euclid truck with the most complicated air brake system and he came out and drew up a sketch and a list of parts that gave that truck better brakes than the factory did and it was very inexpensive to boot!

The aftermarket clusters are rated at 1400-1900 psi, so your math is spot on. Todd, the fellow I spoke with at Fleet Products up in Canada, seemed very familiar in his power cluster knowledge going so far to explain that they (his brake parts company) came up with Wagner equivalents because they got tired to trying to track down Wagner cores to rebuild.

That master cylinder at Amazon looks spot on. Also, one of my friends just told me that he has an acid bath so maybe rebuilding will be the way to go.

Rebuilding wise, what do I do to rebuild the air cylinder side? I haven't found any sources for parts. The original part number for just the air cylinder was 1120001C91. The air cylinder measures 4x7" Right now my air cylinders are leaking air into the master cylinders.

 

[kshansen]

The aftermarket clusters are rated at 1400-1900 psi, so your math is spot on. Todd, the fellow I spoke with at Fleet Products up in Canada, seemed very familiar in his power cluster knowledge going so far to explain that they (his brake parts company) came up with Wagner equivalents because they got tired to trying to track down Wagner cores to rebuild.

That master cylinder at Amazon looks spot on. Also, one of my friends just told me that he has an acid bath so maybe rebuilding will be the way to go.

Rebuilding wise, what do I do to rebuild the air cylinder side? I haven't found any sources for parts. The original part number for just the air cylinder was 1120001C91. The air cylinder measures 4x7" Right now my air cylinders are leaking air into the master cylinders.

First thing on the air side would be to take that ring of bolts out around the end towards the hydraulic master cylinder. There is a spring in there but not a high power spring like on a truck brake chamber that can kill you. Then that "can" should come off pretty easy, might need a gentile tap or two with a rubber hammer. Once that is off you need to see what it looks like on the inside, gouges or rust that can not be cleaned up with a light touch with fine sand paper would be a problem.

As I recall those brake chambers were sealed with one or two orings around the piston would need to determine the size of the oring to try to locate a replacement. The two main things I would be interested in would be the ID of the can, think that might be 7 inches the next would be to figure out how thick the oring was originally, say 1/4 inch, 3/8 inch or what ever. The more I think of it that 7 inch air housing may have a lip type seal with a spring in it. That might be difficult to find.

I have found three different kit on line but they do not give a size so I have sent emails to them.

 

[Minnesota Eric]

First thing on the air side would be to take that ring of bolts out around the end towards the hydraulic master cylinder. There is a spring in there but not a high power spring like on a truck brake chamber that can kill you. Then that "can" should come off pretty easy, might need a gentile tap or two with a rubber hammer. Once that is off you need to see what it looks like on the inside, gouges or rust that can not be cleaned up with a light touch with fine sand paper would be a problem.

As I recall those brake chambers were sealed with one or two orings around the piston would need to determine the size of the oring to try to locate a replacement. The two main things I would be interested in would be the ID of the can, think that might be 7 inches the next would be to figure out how thick the oring was originally, say 1/4 inch, 3/8 inch or what ever. The more I think of it that 7 inch air housing may have a lip type seal with a spring in it. That might be difficult to find.

I have found three different kit on line but they do not give a size so I have sent emails to them.

Thanks for the leg-work of sending out inquires as well as the tip on what to look for on the air-side of the power cluster. I pulled one of the brake clusters out on Saturday and plan to head out to my garage to split it to determine the diameter of the bore and condition later on Sunday evening.

 

[Minnesota Eric]

I broke down the power cluster.

Using a grease pencil to highlight the cast lettering, as expected, the Power Cluster is a Wagner.

And as we expected the master cylinder is an FE-1099.

My luck, of course, is I removed the easy side power cluster, which has light corrosion on the bottom of the master cylinder bore and had not actually failed (so all the air is coming in on the other side), but the air brake cylinder is so rusty that I'd need to take heat to it to break it down or patience and a can of BP Blaster. Right now the shell isn't moving and all the bolts came out rather rusted from the shell.

The master has different guts than the NAPA link, and specifically a very good fine screen just ahead of the primary piston that limits any sediments from traveling down to the calipers (I was happy to see this as I have a total of six calipers on four disk brakes). The diameter of the bore is 1-3/4" and on this specif master cylinder in the photos, a light hone and an acid bath would sort it with new rubber parts. The other side is worse if my visual inspection has any bearing on its condition.

 

[kshansen]

I'm seeming to be hitting a brick wall at this end!

There is another guy on the form BAM1968 who may have a similar brake chamber off a Cat machine, used but possibly repairable but right now I have no idea if it is of the same size as the one on your Hough. I did reply to him and suggested he contact you directly.

I have also found at least one other Cat machine that uses these style brake chambers but again Cat is not being helpful with giving and information on the sizes of the master and air chambers. No idea of how to get that information.

 

[Theweldor]

I was working on a crane truck a couple of days ago and noticed it had those Wagner chambers for the brakes. Didn't pay ant attention to the size of them. These were just the air end of what is on the Hough. It is only 5 or 6 years old so thay are still used just have to find some information on them.
I have some work to do on that this coming weekend. I will take note of what make the crane is.

 

[kshansen]

I was working on a crane truck a couple of days ago and noticed it had those Wagner chambers for the brakes. Didn't pay ant attention to the size of them. These were just the air end of what is on the Hough. It is only 5 or 6 years old so thay are still used just have to find some information on them.
I have some work to do on that this coming weekend. I will take note of what make the crane is.

That is what can be so frustrating, knowing that say a company like Wagner makes a product but then because of contracts with the manufacturer they sell the the product to they can not or will not provide information to anyone else.

I'd be willing to bet that there are many different applications for the air end "can" used in this and your crane application. Be it pushing on a brake lever or a plunger in a hydraulic master cylinder. I do recall back before "Maxi" brakes came out many trucks used air cans just like those to push on the slack adjusters for the service brakes.

 

[Minnesota Eric]

So the replacement from Wagner appears to be an A840.

https://amzn.to/3go4XPB

Although the masters likely can be rebuilt, in light of the fact that a replacement air cylinder cannot be found (yet we know they are still made by Wagner, sigh), I'm going to go with the aftermarket solution: if for no other reason, the cost savings, but also to update from an obsolete power cluster. After texting photos and speaking with Todd at Fleet Products up in Canada, Todd affirmed their master cylinder has the same sediment filter as well as the check valve that my master cylinder has. I'll need to modify the mounting of the new power clusters, but I should have plenty of space to do that.

Master cylinder piston part number FC6433

The guts of the Wagner FE1099 with the check valve at the end of the spring and the sediment filter at the end of the piston.

Here is the link to the retrofit power-cluster: https://www.fleet-products.ca/65-840-air-hydraulic-actuator/

At this point I still do not know if the treadle pedals work or the condition of the six Goodrich A4 brake calipers. Once I've plumbed in the new power clusters, I'm hoping a good flushing of brake fluid will get the A4 calipers working as I dread taking off the wheels because I can only imagine the fiddle-factor of trying to lift them with my tractor's loader and whatever is involved with rigging to keep the wheel straight.

 

[kshansen]

Well nice thing about the air side of that new system is that just about any place that even knows what an air brake is will have the diaphragms sitting on the shelf. I think I would ask Tod if he could give you the part number for the kit to rebuild the hydraulic ends of the powerclusters he will be selling you so if 5-10 years from now you need to rebuild them you will have that information at hand.

 

[Minnesota Eric]

Well nice thing about the air side of that new system is that just about any place that even knows what an air brake is will have the diaphragms sitting on the shelf. I think I would ask Tod if he could give you the part number for the kit to rebuild the hydraulic ends of the powerclusters he will be selling you so if 5-10 years from now you need to rebuild them you will have that information at hand.

I wholeheartedly agree that parts for rebuilding is a good idea but when I asked, Fleet Products claimed that they do not have a parts kit for a rebuild, just the individual parts. I will attempt to document what things are when I receive the parts.

Meanwhile, I have what I hope are some easy questions that I've been trying to find out answers to in my service books.

What hydraulic oil does this thing take?
What engine oil does a DT466B like?
Axle oil?
Trans oil?

Does this PayLoader like Molly-based grease in the joints or should I get a different grease for servicing? I've been loading my G.Gun grease gun with Moly-graph grease for my tractor. Here are Amazon links to what I've been using. Moly-Graph Grease https://amzn.to/2TMi8jO and the G-Gun https://amzn.to/2zEjlTa

For whatever reason, finding the oil type and weight is like a State secret in the service manuals.

 

[Minnesota Eric]

I have some additional questions about loose lines that are either disconnected or capped on my Pay Loader. A short video covers four loose lines I'm wondering about.

 

[kshansen]

At :30 seconds in video that hose and the fitting does look like a quick connect. You say that and another hose are hooked to an oil gauge. Do those gages have and thing on them to say what they are or are there some little symbols on them? A picture of the gauges may give a hint as to what they are or even what the pressure ratings are on them.

That line that looks like it goes up to the top of radiator on the right side of the machine, can you feel up in there to know if it is connected to anything? Any chance you could reach up there with your cell phone and get a picture of where it is connected? Are there any more hoses of that size going to the radiator area? If so are they hooked to something?
As for the hose coming from the air governor. I can't make out which port of the governor it is connected to.

In the picture above the ports I have put the red line through are all connected inside and anyone of them would be connected to a hose going to the air tank to tell the governor how much air pressure is in the tank. The other ports would be plugged. Now the ports inline with the green line are the ports for the output from governor to the unloader valve in the compressor. Also as you have a aftermarket air dryer on the other side of the machine it would also be connected to one of the ports with the green line, very possible that the line to the unloader and the line to the air dryer would be connected to the same port with a tee. The port with the blue star is a vent that 90% of the time is just open to the air it needs to be able to let off pressure for the governor to work.

It would help to know where the hose in question is connected to the governor to make any kind of guess what it's purpose is or was.

If someone who did not understand how things worked was in on the engine swap they may have just left it there and capped it because it was leaking. Many times you will find things on a machine of that age were someone just capped things they had no idea why they were there and just wanted to get it running fast!

 

[Minnesota Eric]

Understand that until a few days ago, all of this was buried under dirt in the engine bay. Here are two photos of the hose running down to the Governer. The extra hose that is capped off is the right-hand one.

Looking straight down. The extra hose here is the lefthand one.

Pictures didn't turn out in the cab, but my gauges without homes are two 0-300PSI fluid-filled gages. I'm thinking trans pressure and oil pressure thinking that the main engine oil gage is inop and they added one at some point, then disconnected it for whatever reason??? Anyway, the two female quick disconnects would need to be replaced. In the next photo, I'm wondering if this is a male quick disconnect. If it is, I'm unfamiliar with the style. This photo is right above the transmission.

Trying to take pictures of the hose running to the rear end led to the discovery of yet another (unrelated to the mystery hose) gizmo behind the right rear work light (which is popped out in the next photo). Behind the gizmo, we can see the mystery hose, and what looks like a crimped end on that same hose, but I couldn't tell what was going on in the dark.

BTW, I still have not located where the sending unit is for the fuel tank which is driving me batty trying to find it!

 

[kshansen]

So if I'm seeing it right in these two pictures both those hoses are hooked to the same port? That is the port that should be connected to the "dry" air tank assuming there is one tank that the compressor main outlet hooks to or the outlet from your air dryer. Not real sure why they would have a second hose connected there unless for some reason they were using it as a source of air pressure for something else.

This photo is right above the transmission. That is a very common style of quick connect for pressure gauges. And the hose near there has the female connector for it. As both appear to have been unused for many years I would not suggest trying to use them unless you really need to as there is a good chance you will end up with a plugged gauge and or leaking connection. Personally if there was no operating problem with the transmission I would not bother with a pressure gauge in that system.

That gizmo seen through the round hole is the air cylinder and linkage for a shutter system that controls the air flow through the radiator core. It strikes me as a bit strange as I don't recall any Hough loaders using shutters on the radiator.

A couple concerns I would have due to the very obvious lack of care this machine has had as seen by the accumulation of dirt everywhere first would be how plugged is the radiator core both inside where the coolant flows as well as the out side where the air needs to pass to draw off the heat. Second would be are the vanes of the shutter system stuck closed or partially closed? If they are closed it could result in the engine over heating even in cold weather.

Also Just had an idea that air cylinder in the above picture would have a hose going from the end you can't see in the picture to a shutterstat(a temperature controlled air valve) mounted somewhere in the coolant system. It could be mounted on the engine or maybe even somewhere in the radiator. This could be where the mystery air hose is connected! Just had a thought that that is what the capped off hose at the air governor was for, the air supply to the shutterstat.

I'm attaching a picture off Ebay of a shutterstat that a machine of the H80's vintage might have used, ignore the Ford tag!

Not visible in picture but on either side of the part that says D-24000 Shuterstat there would be 1/8 inch pipe holes to connect air hoses. The copper slug down at the bottom is submerged in the coolant to sense the temperature and open or close tha air valve inside.

That's about all I have for now. I think the two biggest things I would suggest would be to get working brakes, both service brakes and parking brake and next would be clean, clean, clean.

 

[Minnesota Eric]

Thanks, kshansen! I want to take a pressure washer to this thing but it is also sitting on my clean concrete driveway surrounded by 300-year-old pines that I'm not keen on contaminating. Anyway, I'm in agreement with brakes, then cleaning then fixing other stuff. The shutter thing makes sense and there is an airline running to it. Right now the shutters are (painted) open. Will likely have more thoughts later on in the day.