Ever blade backwards?

[rsherril]

So we've come full circle here, (pun intended). Graders can blade backwards and it eliminates turning around which is more efficent if the operator is up for it. So what can I expect to pay these days for a 26 yr. old 570B these days John?,

 

[John C.]

Average auction is around $21,000, average asking price is around $33,000 so I would expect a decent machine that runs and is fully operational to get between $25 and $29K. Keep in mind that the high low auction spread is from $6K to $45K.

 

[ovrszd]

I'm all about technology advancement. I certainly don't want to go back to an A series Deere or G series Cat.

With that said. We are a long ways from autonomous (sp?) graders.

Good friend of mine is a very large row crop farmer. Kinse makes a Grain Cart without operator station. Totally driven by GPS technology. He wants one real bad. But,,,, he says it doesn't know where that washout is or even where that Electric pole is out in the middle of the field.

 

[DB2]

I was looking for this picture since this thread began. I believe it is a great example of a time when reverse blading just makes sense.

 

[rsherril]

And what do you suppose happens in the next three feet going backwards? That's not my idea of blading, just using a blade to accomplish a job. I have used a grader to put a culvert in, however a small one. I approached that job perpendicular to the road in ditching mode, then after setting the pipe, may have used a trick like that to cover it before putting more surface over it.

 

[ovrszd]

I understand the concept in the pic. Better visibility of the cutting edge when working up against the end of the culvert.

I've installed hundreds and hundreds of culverts over the past 30 years. Installed 13 last Summer. I've never reversed my blade to do so.

What is happening at the striking end of my cutting edge is as easy to control as my index finger. And that's how I see it in my mind when doing delicate work.

Not saying I'm any good at it. Just saying that's how my mind sees it.

 

[DB2]

And what do you suppose happens in the next three feet going backwards? That's not my idea of blading, just using a blade to accomplish a job. I have used a grader to put a culvert in, however a small one. I approached that job perpendicular to the road in ditching mode, then after setting the pipe, may have used a trick like that to cover it before putting more surface over it.

I just assumed there was no room to go any further forward (or turn the machine around) so that was the solution

 

[Welder Dave]

Next people are going to be having a big debate about if angling the blade 42.5 deg's is better than angling it 45 deg's. The question was asked if graders are ever grade in reverse. The answer is yes and for some applications is the best way to do it. The pic. above looks to be a good example of this.

 

[Terry140]

I blade backwards..If the material is light and you take it easy, the grader will do it without any problems. It's a handy trick to have in the repertoire especially when you don't have room to flick the grader around. I've been around graders for 40 years..most of my life, I'm a second generation operator of 26 years..My father was a grader operator for 36 years..he used to do it. The Cat grader demonstrator here in Western Australia would show how to do it too. I've got grader sales brochures, workshop manuals, parts books, operator manuals and grading guides from Adams to Volvo..and in amongst all that, there's tips and instructions on how to blade backwards from Cat, John Deere and Galion just to name a few

 

[Queenslander]

To my way of thinking, it should be easier on the machine pulling backwards.
It has always impressed me what a sterling job those hand full of bolts that hold the drawbar on the frame do.

 

[rsherril]

Now is a good time to introduce into this conversation the purpose of tandum wheels on a REAL motorgrader. I know that you can show me examples for the next week of single axle rear wheels on old graders and Huber belly blades.
I've back dragged with loader buckets and gotten acceptable results. I don't need to explain how tandums wheels contribute to stabilizing the blade to grader operators. For you other guys front wheels handle the rough stuff, blade knocks it down while spreading and setting lateral grade, tandems minimize blade blade disturbance as the machine moves FORWARD over high or low spots which may be or not intensionally left in the road.

My grading world is full of this stuff. I'll be watching the front wheels going over and down the crest while the left end of the blade is about to top it , the right side and tandums are still climbing. Now throw a curve in the road where I could use two more arms for grabbing levers to bend that machine around while using my knee to hold the steering wheel. I dream of a joy stick in each hand snaking my way down these roads. Never once have I dreamed of doing this backwards. I understand that there are some mushrooms that might help with that.

Needless to say these are not typical roads, but roads they are and I am paid to take care of them and make improvements as funds allow. A articulating tandum wheeled small grader has been the ticket to my success for the last 12 years. My hat is off to all you grader guys who have developed your skills for your particular situations. Thank you for sharing this knowledge. Now back to that front steering cylinder I intend to pull off today. (Shop Talk 570A).

 

[rsherril]

Now is a good time to introduce into this conversation the purpose of tandem wheels on a motorgrader. I know that you can show me examples for the next week of single axle rear wheels on old and new graders as well as belly blades on dump trucks.

I don't need to explain how tandems wheels contribute to stabilizing the blade to grader operators. For you other guys front wheels handle the rough stuff, blade knocks it down while spreading and setting lateral grade, tandems minimize blade disturbance as you grade forward. What I would expect to happen in the picture above is the front wheels decending faster than the blade can be lifted, but maybe blade tilt function could help here. Possibly that a ditch is for drainage and will be lined to slow erosion. May be standard operating proceedure for new road construction for all I know.

Tandems gently help minimize grade disturbance as you go over crests and dips that are to become part of the finished results. They also help with bringing a road to grade when adding road base or surface by pivoting before and after the rear axle passes over the offending boulder that got pulled up behind the blade exactly in line with your wheel track thereby reducing the blade reaction to the deviation significantly. Think pit mine road and what those graders deal with.

I maintain roads where grade will change quickly as I top out over a crest or go over a water bar like feature that we often put in to deal with flash floods when they overwhelming culverts. Throw in a curve now for a little more action and remember to keep that crown and maybe a little super in that corner too with a twelve foot driving surface. Get the picture? If not, it's a little better than a motorcross course as it has ditches for drainage. I exagerate some here. These roads are suitable for passenger cars to home construction equipment. Just one of many situations where a motorgrader can be effective. I can't think of a better tool than a small articulated motorgrader for this job and I have considered and tried other ways.

That said, graders are used for all sorts of things such as fire lines and smoothing up road cuts to pushing scrapers and pulling out stuck dump trucks. I find it amazing to see one front wheel in the ditch and the tandems on grade while progressing forward. Can't imagine doing that in reverse however imagination is the limit I would guess. Increditable machines for sure. Now I'm off to Shop Talk to continue my quest to repair a not so increditable leaking front steering cylinder. And that is the other part of the story of owning one of these tools.

 

[rsherril]

Sorry about the double post but you get the idea

 

[Welder Dave]

This conversation was about using a grader in reverse not about the benefits of tandem wheels or your theories on how graders are engineered to operate. Why do all major grader manufactures make the blade swivel 360 deg's if the blade was never supposed to be turned around? It would be a whole lot simpler to make it only swivel say 120 deg's. It's quite clear you've never turned the blade around but instead of considering it may be beneficial in SOME applications are trying to do everything possible to dismiss its use.

 

[John C.]

The benefits of tandems are precisely one of the issues. Where do you think that blade is going in relation to the ground when you are in reverse? What rsherril is telling you is that you might pull a little bit of dirt a few yards to perhaps make up for a mistake you made. But you will have to turn the blade all the way around again and make another pass to make it right. In the example photo of trying to set that ditch by putting the grader across it and pulling material back up the slope, you have put the machine in an impossible situation. The tandems have spit the weight and are now pulling up hill. They will spin out and dig trenches. The front of the machine will drop down which will directly drop the blade down, making more weight on the edges and stopping the machine from moving and then the tandems are certain to dig those trenches and more than likely requiring another machine to pull the grader out of a ditch he shouldn't have been in at all.

You can turn the circle 360 to make it easy to replace cutting edges and repair the mounting linkages and support brackets. Just because the ability is there, doesn't mean that the machine was meant to be used that way. A grader makes production going forward.

I would suggest that before you run on about someone's knowledge and skill, you might look in the mirror and assess your own knowledge and skills.

 

[Welder Dave]

Apparently Cat disagrees with you and Randy Krieg, Terry 140, the Cat demonstrator in Western Australia, JD, Volvo, Galion and several other manufactures are all wrong? They aren't talking about grading miles of ditches in reverse and it's not like it takes half an hour to turn the blade around. In the example above maybe all the operator wanted to do was pull the material back a few feet so he could finish the ditch down the length of the road going forward.

I prefer to listen to experience than be closed minded about what a machine is capable of doing in the right hands. Nobody was questioning the virtues of the tandems or grading going forward. The OP of this thread was asking if a grader could be used in reverse. Graders have evolved in the last 100 years and so have operators.

 

[cuttin edge]

Ok ladies..... Some people like Coffee, some like tea. I like both. No need for a rumble. I'm sure that when Bernard von grader invented the thing, he didn't want people fighting over it's uses. It's a beauty of a winter's day, and I'm going outside to play with my daughter in the snow. She just got a new sled. Will she go forwards or backwards.... Who knows, whatever works for her. To the OP.... I don't grade backwards. Not saying it's wrong, but I just don't do it.

 

[tinnerjohn]

This has been a very interesting and informative topic. Someone mentioned spinning the blade around for filling holes. I'd like to know if or how feasible this is on wet roads? With this winters weather, I've got lots of holes, but I know I'll turn the road surface to soup if I try to actually grade it. I've been backdragging with the plow truck, just wondering if the blade would do a better job. Any one have any experience doing this? Thanks. John

 

[rsherril]

I thought I would just check my email before going to bed. I've got an interesting conversation going on about a particular butterfly, but there you were and I even thought I took cutting edge's advice and unsubscribed from this thread.

You asked a good question deserving a response. I would go with the plow. Think of the mouldboard as a lever and the circle drive as a fulcrum. If you spin that blade when it is in contact with the ground, your putting more pressure on the fulcrum and the circle teeth in contact the pinon gear. Up to you but I've had to reseal that gear box and it's a pain. The drive mechanisum might be even worse, (expensive/ time consuming ). When I'm grading forward, sometimes I want to increase the angle of attack. I have a choice of stopping, articulation, circle shift or spinning the mouldboard. If I chose adjusting the mouldboard with the blade rotation, I will slow down while putting down pressure on the end coming to me to assist in moving the opposite end foreward. Circle shift will do the same, but it results in lifting the mouldboard up which you will need to compensate for, (works well for supers though). Articulation changes the angle of attack w/o changing the blade elevation, but it will effect where the windrow is in relation to your rear wheels. If your rear wheels ride up on the windrow, that will screw up your blade contact with the ground, (difficult to compensate for w/o stopping ).
That's what I love about grading. Choices and results. It's up to me. Much of it is feel. Really liked how the old worm drives could give you feedback on down pressure when they were properly adjusted. I operated a Allis Chamers M60 for awhile and other than too small, it was a sweet machine in the feel department. Bench seat helped too. Found a picture of a WABCO 777 I used that was fun, but the leftside blade adjust was a killer. Owner replaced it with a hyd cylinder for comparsion purposes it was good. Never got around to matching the other side. It's still around, but hasn't been worked for years.

 

[tinnerjohn]

Thanks for your quick reply. I talked with a retired operating engineer who started out on a Cat in Viet Nam last night who basically told me I'd be asking for trouble also. This winter has been frustrating. yesterday it was 40, tonight their calling for 6" of wet snow, high of 20 Friday and back in the 40"s next week. No road can take the up and downs No road can take that very long! John