Case 350 Crawler kicking my butt

[frickenbored]

This is just a suggestion.
Put #1 cylinder TDC and check the injection pump timing. 8 degrees BTDC.
If it is OK remove the pump and send it South Carolina for a rebuild.
It is the only thing left that can be the problem.

I do want to check the timing of the pump but I believe that the pump is working just fine. When I installed all 4 injectors upside down all 4 injectors fired so the pump is making at least 2600psi to overcome the injector needle.

If it is in time and getting fuel and air then it should run. I'm concerned about the cranking speed of the engine. It has to crank at a quick pace to create the compression and heat needed to fire the fuel off.

It's got a brand new starter and I keep and charger on the batteries at all times. It actually cranks really fast. It cranked much slower with the old starter and still started. I'll post a video later showing the cranking speed.

 

[Delmer]

So you soaked the cylinders for a week, and then got 300 PSI from each dry. Did you add oil and retest? Are you getting any mist out of the exhaust when it's cranking?

 

[frickenbored]

I did spray a little bit of oil before I tried to re-start it. For the first few cranks I did get some oil mist and what looked like small chunks of carbon out of the exhaust but after cranking for a while that cleared up and now I'm just getting a little bit of white smoke like before.

 

[Vetech63]

I did spray a little bit of oil before I tried to re-start it. For the first few cranks I did get some oil mist and what looked like small chunks of carbon out of the exhaust but after cranking for a while that cleared up and now I'm just getting a little bit of white smoke like before.

Do us a favor and hit the engine with a bit of starting fluid and tell us what happens.

 

[Tinkerer]

I do want to check the timing of the pump but I believe that the pump is working just fine. When I installed all 4 injectors upside down all 4 injectors fired so the pump is making at least 2600psi to overcome the injector needle.

That doesn't determine if the correct amount of fuel is being delivered to the injectors.
Do as Vetech suggests and give it some ether. Don't go crazy with it !!!!
Maybe remove the air filters also. They may be soaked with WD40 if it was squirted into them.
Is there any chance something is in the intake manifold ?
Seems like a silly question but I saw a rag in one once.

 

[Ronsii]

Like Tinkerer says... check the entire air intake system I have seen birds and squirrels move complete nests in literally hours!!! If you leave an open hole for em' to sneak in they will fill it

 

[frickenbored]

That doesn't determine if the correct amount of fuel is being delivered to the injectors.

This is very true and could be my problem.

I took off the air filter housing a few weeks ago to remove the valve cover, I haven't put it back on since so the intake manifold is wide open. I sprayed some ether in the engine on Saturday, I get about a second of run time and a ton of white and black smoke from the exhaust. White being the burned fuel and black being the unburned fuel that's just pooling in the cylinders from all the cranking. I haven't tried pointing my heat gun in the intake yet to warm up the air but I'd be surprised if that's all it needed.

 

[frickenbored]

Also when I replaced the injectors two of the return line grommets at the t-fittings on top of the injectors were in poor shape and they leak pretty bad now. But everything I've read about this fuel system says that that shouldn't matter because the return line need zero pressure for this system to run. I have new grommets on order.

 

[thepumpguysc]

To BE SURE about the return lines, trace them out & if ANY of the lines go anywhere other than back to the fuel tank.. GET THEM FIXED, Pronto..
If they're leaking fuel, then they're sucking air..
I haven't gone back thru all these pages but.. U REALLY NEED TO check the timing..
IF its 180* out of time.. it'll white smoke & not start.. but the only way that could happen is, if the pump was off at some point in time..

 

[Tinkerer]

I have never seen a diesel exhaust that is both white and black like you describe.
I do not advocate using a lot of ether. But , there are times (quite few actually) that I have used a lot of it with good results.
First I made absolutely sure the transmission is in neutral and the brakes are set hard.
Set the throttle wide open and the injector pump shut-off is in full run position.
Start cranking the engine and only then give it a sniff of ether. When it starts keep giving it enough ether so that it will get to at least 1500 rpms or more.
Be super careful you don't give it enough ether that it starts to knock !!!!
Let it run several seconds like that. If the dam thing doesn't take off on diesel fuel and go to full throttle speed you have major problems in the fuel delivery system.
For all the naysayers about that method ,I can say that I ran a service truck for seven years for a very large earth-moving contractor. In that time I changed literally thousands of fuel filters and had to deal with priming problems sometimes on a daily basis.
That is when I figured out how to use ether in the manner I described. I never damaged an engine doing it.

 

[frickenbored]

To BE SURE about the return lines, trace them out & if ANY of the lines go anywhere other than back to the fuel tank.. GET THEM FIXED, Pronto..
If they're leaking fuel, then they're sucking air..
I haven't gone back thru all these pages but.. U REALLY NEED TO check the timing..
IF its 180* out of time.. it'll white smoke & not start.. but the only way that could happen is, if the pump was off at some point in time..

Right, I'm sure that the leaking return lines aren't helping my cause but I do have new grommets on order, and they definitely all go back to the tank. To the best of my knowledge the fuel pump has never been off in at least the past 20-30 years. I do want to check timing, I'll have to take the valve cover back off and watch for cylinder one to get to TDC on the compression stroke. I'll have to guess-timate where 8 degree past TDC is because I cant see the crank pulley without pulling the radiator but if the pump lines line up just past TDC I know its good.

I'll post some pictures tonight of fuel line routings and ect...maybe someone will see something that I'm not.

 

[thepumpguysc]

Same here Tinkerer..
But u know these dam kids.. lol
Being in the "fuel system business" its awful hard to break out the can of quick start .. because ITS MY JOB to FIX the fuel system problems..
I DO LIKE IT when the customer says, lets just spray it.. * I look at him & say.. how about I JUST FIX IT..??

 

[thepumpguysc]

Arent the marks on the flywheel.?? thru an access plug..??

& IF the pump hasn't been off is 20-30 years, THATS the problem..??

 

[Vetech63]

So the engine kicks with ether. Are you sure the fuel is good? When you say your getting fuel out of the injector tips, is it atomizing the fuel ? Something is being missed.

 

[frickenbored]

I have never seen a diesel exhaust that is both white and black like you describe.
I do not advocate using a lot of ether. But , there are times (quite few actually) that I have used a lot of it with good results.
First I made absolutely sure the transmission is in neutral and the brakes are set hard.
Set the throttle wide open and the injector pump shut-off is in full run position.
Start cranking the engine and only then give it a sniff of ether. When it starts keep giving it enough ether so that it will get to at least 1500 rpms or more.
Be super careful you don't give it enough ether that it starts to knock !!!!
Let it run several seconds like that. If the dam thing doesn't take off on diesel fuel and go to full throttle speed you have major problems in the fuel delivery system.
For all the naysayers about that method ,I can say that I ran a service truck for seven years for a very large earth-moving contractor. In that time I changed literally thousands of fuel filters and had to deal with priming problems sometimes on a daily basis.
That is when I figured out how to use ether in the manner I described. I never damaged an engine doing it.

I've actually been doing this procedure almost exactly. Full throttle, pump shut off full open and enough ether to get the engine running for a few seconds. This is actually how I got the bucket lifted all the way up for easier access to the engine. But as soon as I take the ether away the engine dies instantly. My dad used to own a construction company with about 8 or 9 heavy equipment machines, backhoes, bulldozers, excavators, compactors, ect...every once and a while someone would run one out of fuel and we almost always got them going again with a small squirt of ether...this Case on the other hand, not so much.

 

[thepumpguysc]

The pump lines line up BEFORE TDC.. NOT after.

 

[Vetech63]

 

[thepumpguysc]

It'll run on ether... so that says u have a fuel delivery problem.. PERIOD..
U have new injectors & half azzed compression.. enough to START a diesel anyway..
What else is left.?? timing & the inj. pump itself..
Being that old I would suspect the return line is clogged w/ flex ring..
Have u tried starting it w. ether w/ the return line OFF the top cover.??
WE KNOW it doesn't have a return connector/check ball.. so do it w/ the LINE off..

 

[Vetech63]

sorry couldn't help myself

 

[frickenbored]

Arent the marks on the flywheel.?? thru an access plug..??

& IF the pump hasn't been off is 20-30 years, THATS the problem..??

I have no idea actually...if the marks are on the flywheel that will make things much easier lol.

So the engine kicks with ether. Are you sure the fuel is good? When you say your getting fuel out of the injector tips, is it atomizing the fuel ? Something is being missed.

Fuel is brand new, its the same fuel being used in my dads Massey Ferguson diesel loader right now (we have a 100 gallon tank) and that runs fine. When I had the injectors out they atomized the fuel and all the injectors are brand new now since one of the old ones had a broken tip. I think thepumpguy is right, the 1973 original fuel pump is probably shot. It just confuses me because the pump will fire the injectors...but maybe its not firing enough fuel?