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DEF systems

StanRUS

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 7, 2016
Messages
767
Location
Cal
My service truck does this automatically, raising the RPMs to 1050 for 5 minutes, on 15 minute intervals.
90k miles on the service truck, and one time, the DEF doser nozzle needed cleaned, and, one time, the EGR valve passage needed cleaned. The only other check engine light events were for a turbo actuator electrical, and a failed exhaust manifold gssket.
Typical for Cummins powered service trucks and PTO usage set-up. The 50% PTO time (increased fuel usage) boosted sales of auxiliary diesel power packs. Going APP adds an additional $18-28K on the price of a service truck; all emissions related after Tier1.

IMO, most mid-range is dry vans, reefers and delivery trucks. All of the used rigs I've looked at shut down after idling 10-12 minutes.

Emissions controls need exhaust heat to operate per design.
 
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crane operator

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2009
Messages
8,275
Location
sw missouri
These emission systems need heat. You can't make heat with 80% idle time and 20% light work.

I'm in the same situation with cranes. A new crane may have a 400 hp engine to drive it down the road, then when it gets to the jobsite, it sits in one place and just runs the pumps with that 400hp engine. There's no way that you can get that engine warm just running the pumps, you could run them with a -100hp engine easy.

The crane I ran with a DPF/ regen was hilarious. You couldn't get it to regen automatically when just set up and running pumps. (Link belt and the cat man each blamed the other). If you could get it to start its regen manually from the lower- if you would hit the throttle upstairs (trying to keep working) it would 1/2 the time kick out of regen mode. If it was really hot outside, and you did get it to regen, and it was sitting there doing its thing for 25 minutes (because you couldn't keep working because it would stop the regen), then it sometimes would get too hot under the fiberglass engine cover, and stop the regen because it was too hot in the engine compartment.

This was 6 years ago or so, and a year ago I worked with the same company- and they still fight to keep that crane running. And it was a $800,000 crane new. I wouldn't own one if they gave it to me.

What are they supposed to do with the telehandlers? go run hot laps around the jobsite? Its just like the cranes- there's no way you can actually work them that hard.

I realize the EPA is forcing this on us, but when the engines won't do the work that they should? Progress shouldn't be going backwards.
 

92U 3406

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2017
Messages
3,099
Location
Western Canuckistan
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Wrench Bender
I'm in the same situation with cranes. A new crane may have a 400 hp engine to drive it down the road, then when it gets to the jobsite, it sits in one place and just runs the pumps with that 400hp engine. There's no way that you can get that engine warm just running the pumps, you could run them with a -100hp engine easy.

The crane I ran with a DPF/ regen was hilarious. You couldn't get it to regen automatically when just set up and running pumps. (Link belt and the cat man each blamed the other). If you could get it to start its regen manually from the lower- if you would hit the throttle upstairs (trying to keep working) it would 1/2 the time kick out of regen mode. If it was really hot outside, and you did get it to regen, and it was sitting there doing its thing for 25 minutes (because you couldn't keep working because it would stop the regen), then it sometimes would get too hot under the fiberglass engine cover, and stop the regen because it was too hot in the engine compartment.

This was 6 years ago or so, and a year ago I worked with the same company- and they still fight to keep that crane running. And it was a $800,000 crane new. I wouldn't own one if they gave it to me.

What are they supposed to do with the telehandlers? go run hot laps around the jobsite? Its just like the cranes- there's no way you can actually work them that hard.

I realize the EPA is forcing this on us, but when the engines won't do the work that they should? Progress shouldn't be going backwards.

One solution for the telehandlers would be a fan clutch or a hydraulic fan. At least then you wouldn't be constantly pulling -35C air through the rad and engine bay.

With cranes, is it possible to install a small, 3-4 litre engine to run the hydraulics? What about a load circuit on the hydraulics? Keep the pumps loaded up and make the engine run under load when in standby?
 

crane operator

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2009
Messages
8,275
Location
sw missouri
One solution for the telehandlers would be a fan clutch or a hydraulic fan. At least then you wouldn't be constantly pulling -35C air through the rad and engine bay.

With cranes, is it possible to install a small, 3-4 litre engine to run the hydraulics? What about a load circuit on the hydraulics? Keep the pumps loaded up and make the engine run under load when in standby?

Some of the 100 ton plus cranes are two engined, one to drive on the road- one upstairs for pumps. Actually the old grove 25-60 ton (old TM series) were twin engined too. Of course the bean counters don't like this solution, two engines are more expensive than one, especially with the new engines being so much more expensive.

I think they have also tried cylinder deactivation on some of the all terrains with only one large engine.
 

Tags

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2012
Messages
1,610
Location
Connecticut
I love that "We" need to brain storm to resolve (insert pretty much any truck/equipment manufacturer) problems! Don't they have people much "smarter" than us to figure it out? $800,000 for a crane that doesn't work, my a$$!! Machines that go into regen all the time because they can't placard the inside of a cab with stickers that say "DO NOT IDLE!!" Or a simple explanation of how to run a manual regen, I guess the cab walls are too full of lawyer stickers so you don't run yourself over or so you know how to Turn on the dome light....the whole emissions thing is a huge joke and we are the ones that pay for all the nonsense....rant over, carry on.....:eek:
 

td25c

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Joined
Feb 14, 2009
Messages
5,250
Location
indiana
Some of the 100 ton plus cranes are two engined, one to drive on the road- one upstairs for pumps. Actually the old grove 25-60 ton (old TM series) were twin engined too.

I heard they went back to twin engines . Makes perfect sense given the difference in horsepower requirement between the truck chassis & crane house .

I always thought it was a more simple system overall with a twin engine rig .

Not to mention if the truck fuel tank is a little low you can borrow some from the house unit to get back home . :D

Not that I ever did that . LOL !
 

td25c

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2009
Messages
5,250
Location
indiana
Regeneration cycle .

When I hear a phrase like that …… I think about lunch time chomping on a hamburger & checking the engine oil & fuel level on the machine .

LOL !
 

crane operator

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2009
Messages
8,275
Location
sw missouri
I heard they went back to twin engines
They keep going back and forth- every year or two liebherr changes from one engine to two engine.

The largest AT I've run that was one engine was a GMK 4085. It had a tip up cab like a cabover semi, but if the boom is in the rest- you can't tip the cab up.

And you have to tip the cab up, to get at anything on the engine.

And the fuel filters are mounted on the engine in canisters, directly on top of the engine, directly under the center of the cab.

Can anyone else see where this path goes, because I've been down it- and the weeds were tall and the language was colorful.
 

MarshallPowerGen

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2017
Messages
442
Location
Northwestern USA
Occupation
Generator Technician & Equipment Mechanic
I am so glad I'm getting out of the rental industry just as we're replacing our old gensets with tier 4 ones. We have had nothing but wet stacking issues with our older units because everybody rents gens that are much too large. I kid you guys not we had a customer run a 100KW gen all winter powering only a single 1000 watt light. Then they complain that the thing is a POS because it freezes the crankcase vent twice a week and pukes out all the oil o_O
I've been pretty deep in the generator world for a while now, and just glad I've mostly lived in areas without emissions after seeing pictures of the Tier 4 equipment.

Wouldn't mind getting into the rental world for the variety, but feel you dealing with dummies running a trailer mount 4024 Deere in a Kohler to run a couple of saws on a jobsite. Always fun to finally get the wet stacking bastards set up on full load and launch some chunks out.
 

Vetech63

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2016
Messages
6,362
Location
Oklahoma
Well, who in here is gonna fix this mess!? Who is going to lead the revolt!? Who is going to stand up and demand answers!? Who, amongst us, is going to be the leader......and throw up the finger to the MAN!? :D
 

DoyleX

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2013
Messages
571
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Lever Puller, Gear Jammer, Pipe Twister
Well, who in here is gonna fix this mess!? Who is going to lead the revolt!? Who is going to stand up and demand answers!? Who, amongst us, is going to be the leader......and throw up the finger to the MAN!? :D
Building my armored D9 now. Who wants point? Problem is they always win.
 

92U 3406

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Jan 3, 2017
Messages
3,099
Location
Western Canuckistan
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Wrench Bender
I've been pretty deep in the generator world for a while now, and just glad I've mostly lived in areas without emissions after seeing pictures of the Tier 4 equipment.

Wouldn't mind getting into the rental world for the variety, but feel you dealing with dummies running a trailer mount 4024 Deere in a Kohler to run a couple of saws on a jobsite. Always fun to finally get the wet stacking bastards set up on full load and launch some chunks out.

Until it lights the foam sound deadening insulation in the engine bay on fire.....

Happened to me a couple times. Burning embers drop out the drain hole in the muffler, get caught in the vortex created by the engine fan, then get sucked through the gap between firewall and radiator.

We have had a couple that actually had a 12" flame burning out the stack there was so much fuel in there. We were probably about 4 seconds from melting the muffler it was white hot lol.
 

DIYDAVE

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2007
Messages
2,410
Location
MD
Well, who in here is gonna fix this mess!? Who is going to lead the revolt!? Who is going to stand up and demand answers!? Who, amongst us, is going to be the leader......and throw up the finger to the MAN!? :D

He died several years ago...

 

td25c

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2009
Messages
5,250
Location
indiana
But you can't hardly shut the stupid crane down everytime. Then when you restart, you have to go through the whole set up computer/LMI screen, and frankly, if I've got a bunch of stick out on a job, I don't like to shut them off. It may not restart.

That's a great point Crane Op !

With all the boom jammed out over a job would be the worst time you could have an engine failure or some BS shut down over an emissions add on .

Would almost be like the Captain of an airliner addressing the passengers ….


" No need to worry folks as we are just loosing altitude due to engine regen cycle , the engines should fire back up fine after a few minutes " . :eek:


 

td25c

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2009
Messages
5,250
Location
indiana
Well, who in here is gonna fix this mess!? Who is going to lead the revolt!? Who is going to stand up and demand answers!? Who, amongst us, is going to be the leader......and throw up the finger to the MAN!? :D

Number 45 has put the Man on the run . LOL ! :D
 

JPSouth

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2016
Messages
125
Location
SW Montana
I love that "We" need to brain storm to resolve (insert pretty much any truck/equipment manufacturer) problems! Don't they have people much "smarter" than us to figure it out? $800,000 for a crane that doesn't work, my a$$!! Machines that go into regen all the time because they can't placard the inside of a cab with stickers that say "DO NOT IDLE!!" Or a simple explanation of how to run a manual regen, I guess the cab walls are too full of lawyer stickers so you don't run yourself over or so you know how to Turn on the dome light....the whole emissions thing is a huge joke and we are the ones that pay for all the nonsense....rant over, carry on.....:eek:

I've noticed one thing, and an extension of the general idea would go a long way towards making a point. Older clean equipment, III and before, is bringing premium prices around my area anymore. I've had more than one guy tell me if I ever decide to sell out, he wants first dibs on my stuff. I feel for you guys who have to run newer equipment, for whatever reason; my business is geared such that I don't have to. I do have to pay attention to periodic maintenance pretty carefully, but have zero downtime because of electronics/software/firmware/emissions - got enough headaches with the regular stuff, thank you. For my room-temp IQ, simpler is better; I work in some pretty remote country so I often have a long way to go for parts/service. If I can DIY my fixes in the field, I'm days ahead for time.

My point would be, if enough contractors were going into dealerships and asking about 15 or 20 year old equipment, clean, rebuilt, not abused, and not even considering purchasing new units, something would happen....I think. From what I see on YouTube younger guys starting out seem to not fear substantial debt and are much more comfortable with a chipset or DPF idling them for days - they raise cain with the dealer for loaners instead. Granted, I'm over the hill like a lemming on parade, but I've seen plenty of emissions nightmares as an employee - I don't need any as a one-horse show.
 
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