Good old Iron versus new stuff

[Birken Vogt]

What other states? All 50 per EPA and receiving federal highway funds.
Texas is similar to Calif.
https://www.tceq.texas.gov/assets/public/.../FY18_NonRoad_Stationary_TechSupp.pdf

You mean to say that Fed DOT is somehow requiring Montana to scrap D8Ks for highway funds?

Or is Texas doing this of their own volition?

I mean, it is not going to hurt air pollution if some old hillbilly is still running old gear, everything gets phased out by attrition eventually but these clowns seem overly concerned if there is even 1 old machine left running in the state.

 

[td25c]

I mean, it is not going to hurt air pollution if some old hillbilly is still running old gear, everything gets phased out by attrition eventually but these clowns seem overly concerned if there is even 1 old machine left running in the state.

Agree Birken .



I like that attrition idea . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attrition_warfare

We have a lot of attrition

 

[StanRUS]

You mean to say that Fed DOT is somehow requiring Montana to scrap D8Ks for highway funds?

Or is Texas doing this of their own volition?

I mean, it is not going to hurt air pollution if some old hillbilly is still running old gear, everything gets phased out by attrition eventually but these clowns seem overly concerned if there is even 1 old machine left running in the state.

NO: Montana does not have to give up a D8K to receive US DOT Federal Highway Administration funding. You can use Tier 0 machines in Montana. Montana does not have have any ozone nonattainment or maintenance areas. All states receive a share of US Dot funding based upon population density.
YES: Texas decided to implement their own Air Quality Regulations. Any state can implement stricter AQR’s; sixteen states and DC have using California’s CARB regulations, e.g. known as CARB states.

CARB allows 'old hillbilly machines' to be used 200 hours annually including Tier 0. AG usage machines including dozers-scrapers, do not require off road registration numbers or have hours usage limits including Tier 0 equipment.

 

[Birken Vogt]

Well it makes me very happy to know that the great white father in Washington DC has given Montana permission to keep their old machines until they wear out.

 

[td25c]

Had a pretty funny encounter today with a customer .

Ran in to him at the gas station . Guy was kind of uptight as I reached over to shake his hand .

" Man I've been trying to get ahold of you for the past two days TD ! "

I'm like … Cool Man ! I aint hard to find , how was ya trying to reach me ?

" I sent you 5 text messages ! "

Ohhh , well no wonder . Just call the cell phone and if I don't answer leave a voice message at the tone bro & I will get back to ya .

If your waiting for a text message back it could be 25 to 30 years .

 

[td25c]

CARB allows 'old hillbilly machines' to be used 200 hours annually including Tier 0. AG usage machines including dozers-scrapers, do not require off road registration numbers or have hours usage limits including Tier 0 equipment.

That's sure gonna make me & the kinfolk happy !

 

[RZucker]

Had a pretty funny encounter today with a customer .

Ran in to him at the gas station . Guy was kind of uptight as I reached over to shake his hand .

" Man I've been trying to get ahold of you for the past two days TD ! "

I'm like … Cool Man ! I aint hard to find , how was ya trying to reach me ?

" I sent you 5 text messages ! "

Ohhh , well no wonder . Just call the cell phone and if I don't answer leave a voice message at the tone bro & I will get back to ya .

If your waiting for a text message back it could be 25 to 30 years .

I actually like text... to be able to send pics to clueless parts people, or a list of part numbers.

 

[td25c]

I actually like text... to be able to send pics to clueless parts people, or a list of part numbers.

That would be handy at times to send a picture of the part .

I aint evolved that far yet .

Plant two or three " flip phones " on job sites each year .

No smart phone for td .

Hang on … where's my phone ? LOL !

 

[RZucker]

That would be handy at times to send a picture of the part .

I aint evolved that far yet .

Plant two or three " flip phones " on job sites each year .

No smart phone for td .

Hang on … where's my phone ? LOL !

I have killed so many phones that now they stay in the cab of whatever I drove to the job. Tied down a 330 case excavator, phone ended up under the lowboy tire... crunch, Drowned one in a pond doing some pipe repair, Then there is bouncing them off the passenger door panel in the pickup. Or tossing one at an idiot... Yes did that once.

 

[AzIron]

It's pretty depressing when your phone breaks your windshield and it's a 20 mile drive back to the shop nothing like a temper on top of a temper

 

[old-iron-habit]

I dropped a pager down a wall in a hospital remodel in Fremont, CA in about 1997. A year or so ago an old workmate friend texted me and said he found my pager when he tore that suite down for remodel. Said he needed my address so he could send it back to me. He also mentioned that the batteries were dead.

 

[squid_wood777]

NO
Steel Tariffs could interrupt the supply chain of Cat's sub manufactures. Already a bottle neck before the tariffs.
Before release for general sales the 57K will be given to a couple contractors during the 'pilot phase'. Those Ks are outfitted with Comm 2 box that transmitted data back to Cat engineering.

Talking to a bloke who is high up the ladder with Cat in Sydney Stan and he reckons the 57K and get this the 51K are in the proving grounds now and are well on their way along the chain of events they must follow.I was pleasantly surprised to hear a 51K,the big boys like Peeds Sukuts Indies etc must have told Cat there would be a market for them as i believe the original line for discontinuing them was they wouldnt sell.The plot thickens,i guess when we see them then we will know for sure.

 

[StanRUS]

Talking to a bloke who is high up the ladder with Cat in Sydney Stan and he reckons the 57K and get this the 51K are in the proving grounds now and are well on their way along the chain of events they must follow.I was pleasantly surprised to hear a 51K,the big boys like Peeds Sukuts Indies etc must have told Cat there would be a market for them as i believe the original line for discontinuing them was they wouldnt sell.The plot thickens,i guess when we see them then we will know for sure.

My guess April 2019 for 657K
Brief bio from 1 lead engineer:
January 2015 – December 2016 2 years Managed project timelines, budgets, and resource allocation for New Product Introduction programs and maintained continuous improvement on 3-Wheel Tractor Scraper platforms. Lead 630K and 657K Tier IV emissions updates.
- Key contributor in the redesign of the 630K platform, which removed drum brakes and replaced with wet disc front and dry caliper rear, resulting in improved slope holding and braking performance, elimination of the maintenance costs associated with drum brake adjustments every 250 hours, and cost savings of $1K per machine.
- Drove research and development efforts serving as Tech Lead and managed team resources, created design concepts, and sourced supplier quotes for 657K program.
R.E. Monks run 631Ks; they've had rear axle housing failure on 1 machine, cracked about 4 inches (100mm) inside of the wheel.
C18 Tier4 with engine compression brake (Jake brake) to help prevent engine over speeds by automatically applying brakes and engine brakes via electronics. That is a PLUS, scraper engine over speeds have been historically the number engine failure cause, broken crankshafts and drop valves.

4 fatalities in 18 months; safety nazis are really enforcing brakes on scrapers.

631K proving ground to contractor testing

 

[squid_wood777]

My guess April 2019 for 657K
Brief bio from 1 lead engineer:
January 2015 – December 2016 2 years Managed project timelines, budgets, and resource allocation for New Product Introduction programs and maintained continuous improvement on 3-Wheel Tractor Scraper platforms. Lead 630K and 657K Tier IV emissions updates.
- Key contributor in the redesign of the 630K platform, which removed drum brakes and replaced with wet disc front and dry caliper rear, resulting in improved slope holding and braking performance, elimination of the maintenance costs associated with drum brake adjustments every 250 hours, and cost savings of $1K per machine.
- Drove research and development efforts serving as Tech Lead and managed team resources, created design concepts, and sourced supplier quotes for 657K program.
R.E. Monks run 631Ks; they've had rear axle housing failure on 1 machine, cracked about 4 inches (100mm) inside of the wheel.
C18 Tier4 with engine compression brake (Jake brake) to help prevent engine over speeds by automatically applying brakes and engine brakes via electronics. That is a PLUS, scraper engine over speeds have been historically the number engine failure cause, broken crankshafts and drop valves.

4 fatalities in 18 months; safety nazis are really enforcing brakes on scrapers.

631K proving ground to contractor testing

The jake brake is definetly a top idea considering how much they are used in steep country.What do you think of the suggestion of a 51k.I hopefully am starting work with Piacentini and son,doing lifts on tailings dam walls,dont know if youve seen the post on here about the 6 or so 651s that they put elevators in making them 653s basically.They have the biggest scraper fleet in Australia and are very good at making machines to suit jobs.Hopefully there will be some on the job im talking about and i can have a drive.Should be interesting although i seriously think they should have used 57s instead the old 51s and 31s have a hard time dragging themselves up hills empty never mind loaded.

 

[StanRUS]

The jake brake is definetly a top idea considering how much they are used in steep country.What do you think of the suggestion of a 51k.I hopefully am starting work with Piacentini and son,doing lifts on tailings dam walls,dont know if youve seen the post on here about the 6 or so 651s that they put elevators in making them 653s basically.They have the biggest scraper fleet in Australia and are very good at making machines to suit jobs.Hopefully there will be some on the job im talking about and i can have a drive.Should be interesting although i seriously think they should have used 57s instead the old 51s and 31s have a hard time dragging themselves up hills empty never mind loaded.

31s, 51s...actually 37s, 57s without rear engines are called tail draggers, extra weight hanging on the a$$ end. 31D,Es under powered; had to widen the haul roads so 51Es were not slowed down returning to the cut. 633s loaded can't make money on up grades.
Skip to 4:50, F-ing steep. Prime contractors' vice pres couldn't understand why 'can't they use brakes and retarders to slow down'; X-mas day 2013 conversation when 57s were burning off router bits in 2 hours.

Primary contractor Wood Bros bid the job knowing they're 31Ds wouldn't work. Used 31s for 5 days and called Indy's 57Es; Indy's crew blew up engines and transmissions like they were free! Interesting show.

 

[John C.]

Dragging the bowls must have really pleased the GET salesman to no end. Probably made a years worth of payments on the condo in Hawaii just on this job.

 

[Theweldor]

I have worked on pan spreads here. 31's and 37's were the biggest they had. Unfortunately all the big dirt work is gone here these days. But the thing I noticed the most over the years is finding operators that had any clue how to make the machines efficient in the past few years. All the scrapers are gone now and they have reverted to 740's and a hoe to load them. But with the right crew you could see a road built in a matter of days. That help is long gone!

 

[squid_wood777]

Yes seen this one it was taking 31s nearly an hour to do a lap coz like u said hopeless goin back up the mountain empty and the 57s apparently were coming down in top gear dragging bowls to slow them down and top gear so they didnt over rev.I think they eventually used diggers and belly dumpers if this is the same one.Fancy useing 31s they are the most gutless thing around.All right on short flat hauls.

 

[squid_wood777]

Sorry wrong vid clip.The one i was thinking off was Peeds 57s i think and it wasnt as filthy steep as your clip Stan it was a long way though and getting up there,there were a couple of switchbacks it was unbelievable and the 31s were at walking pace and taking nearly an hour to go round.Makes you wonder whos idea it was to use them.The poor operators wouldve had to get their seats jimmy barred out of their rears.Unfair to put operators in that situation.It wouldve been highway to hell coming down in a 31.

 

[StanRUS]

Sorry wrong vid clip.The one i was thinking off was Peeds 57s i think and it wasnt as filthy steep as your clip Stan it was a long way though and getting up there,there were a couple of switchbacks it was unbelievable and the 31s were at walking pace and taking nearly an hour to go round.Makes you wonder whos idea it was to use them.The poor operators wouldve had to get their seats jimmy barred out of their rears.Unfair to put operators in that situation.It wouldve been highway to hell coming down in a 31.

You're not mistaken. Same landfill job @ Bowerman a.k.a Bee Canyon in Irvine, Calif. Wood Bros Inc. out of Lemoore, Calif (farming country central Calif) low bid the job by underbidding the engineer's estimate. WB knew 31s wouldn't do the job @ the get go; they just didn't have any experience to guesstimate the time required per round. WB hires my buddy (master mech-independent sub) to call the shots for anything related to mechanical/mechanics on their S.Cal jobs.

My buddy asked if I'd work the job strait time 12hr minimum /7s and $4,800 travel pay per month, plus $10 per hour for welding consumables for 18 months. WB's plans changed weekly; work days 6am to when ever, start @ 12pm to 6am, 6pm to 6am. WB has two mechanics on their payroll; they got 8hrs per day and no Sat, Sunday, e.g. no overtime pay. WB's mechanics were only on that job for a few months, then went back north to another job.

My buddy worked full time for a competitor, but still calling the shots. Another buddy and myself could flex-in and still work for other clients while the excavators and semi-bottom dumpers were working.

Excavators and semi-bottom dumpers 'kicked scrapers' a$$'. The round to other side of the landfill is 5 miles. $85 per hour for the semi-bottom dumpers and they paid for their fuel, tires etc. The only problem Orange county didn't want road trucks doing the job! And truck drivers with CB radios, well 1 driver got stuck in the fill, got out of his rig trying to move a rock...16G operator was told it's okay to push, ops! Flattened truck driver, LOL

Back to 31s taking over 1 hour per round. WB got another bid award. The operators were instructed to use 8th gear on the down ramp. They over speed and blow up engines; even blew a 140H engine coming down the ramp.

Independent was the prime contractor @ Bee Canyon a couple of times and sub-ed in on different phases. Their 57s had been sitting 4-5 years; still hadn't recuperated from the 2008 recession.

Cat dealer has a equipment yard onsite, 3-4 service trucks always there...landfills are super big money makers! Work @ landfills; you can really understand our' 'throw away societies'.

651Ks, I don't think that is going to happen. 51Bs won't die; locals make replacement hoods, steel hydraulic lines, wiring looms etc. 51Bs repowered with Tier 3 C18 Acert or other engines can be used forever! The guys wrenching on 51Bs since 1968 or 51Es since 1983; like putting on your boots, no big surprises.