D6c cat loss of oil pressure

[Steve.ahlgren85]

let me guess, they will let you walk away if you give them your tractor..

Plus some!!

 

[Hobbytime]

Well guys, I found out that they are not going to cover the costs involved for the rebuild .They're saying that they are not responsible for the radiator being plugged, as to the cause of the engine failure .The bill to complete putting it back together is A LOT more than what the machine is worth .I have to consider the options that they presented to me. I don't like any of them ,but I have to make a decision on what to do .Thanks for all of your comments ,you guys have been SO helpful ...

so for arguments sake, what is the bill $$$ for the work they have done on the dozer?

 

[Vetech63]

so for arguments sake, what is the bill $$$ for the work they have done on the dozer?

I'm positive its more than the machine is worth as it sits. .......and its not even fixed yet. Ide give them the dozer, tell them FU, and make them come after me.

 

[Vetech63]

so for arguments sake, what is the bill $$$ for the work they have done on the dozer?

Oh GOD, I'm dying to know myself!

 

[Vetech63]

https://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/threads/what-has-happened-to-customer-support.70931/
Steve, go Here^ and tell us how you REALLY feel.

 

[oldirt]

what a mess. really sorry for all this pain when you were only looking for help.

 

[Junkyard]

Man this is f**ked up. Talk to a lawyer for sure. It's worth a few hundred to know your legal options. I don't buy anything they're telling you. Unless you haven't told us the entire true story I don't see how they're not liable. Not saying you're misleading us just putting that contingency out there. They're damn sure responsible for some of the issues.

If I had a machine with a fresh O/H from somebody else exhibiting those symptoms I would most likely decline the job but IF I took it on I would start from the front and work my way back. While an engine is a complete component in and of itself there are ancillary components that must function properly for it to operate correctly. Instinctively I don't trust other people's work. Trust but verify you could say.

Given the background of this machine and having been fought on bills before I would sure think Cat would be doing all they could to cover their a$$. Or in this case they're cornholing you as a way to cover their culpability.

I hate if for you. What a nightmare to deal with. I guess ultimately you will do what's best for you and only you know what that is. I'm a fighter myself, sometimes principal over $$. Have your bank do a draft that's good when you've put 100 hours on it....lol

 

[Steve.ahlgren85]

This has been a real lesson in life. I should have listened to you guys much earlier on ,especially "Nige", he has so much wisdom .but life goes on.I should have repaired the original engine, would have been the best course of action.

 

[Steve.ahlgren85]

To be fair to Ziegler caterpillar, they offered to buy the machine from me for a not too bad price .The replacement parts that they installed were aftermarket parts from Capital Exchange ,that they covered, price wise ,so they are not warranted by Ziegler .Ziegler originally said that they were going to replace the parts ,at their expense on the second rebuild, but they seem to have forgotten about that. They deducted the engine troubleshooting and half of the transport costs from my farm ,but that was all they were going to do for me. Little guy looses again!

 

[crane operator]

I guess I wouldn't be so quick to jump all over cat about this, and I'm not much for lawyers. If you think cat's bill is bad, it's nothing like lawyer bills. And Cat probably has their own on retainer. Maybe I just hate lawyers.

I think a lawyer is just going to mean he can pay a lawyer, and cat, and a year or so from now he might see his dozer, and he'll have wasted even more of his time/life.

If you guys remember, this isn't originally cat's problem. Steve lost a engine, and got a reman from a supplier, and installed it. There were some arrangement problems with the reman engine, and probably a guy familiar with these engines would have caught it, but steve didn't. Reman didn't make it. (wrong oiling set up, if I remember right). I don't think that was on the reman supplier.

After the first reman failed, steve then called in the cat guys. They found the arrangement problem, and put it back together. They kind of started in the middle of this problem, which is a horrible way to jump into a problem, and they knew steve probably didn't want to spend any more $ than he had too, having already been burned once. They dug into it, found the wrong oiler set up, and figured they had it.

The cat man is in a no win situation. Customer tried to fix old dozer himself, messed it up, and now they get thrown in.

IF they go through every possible thing on the dozer, customer is probably upset, because he didn't want his radiator, transmission, torque converter, fuel injection system, finals, or whatever else, all gone through. If they go through everything else, they may have not found anything else, but it sure would have been nice if they had checked the radiator.

When they found the wrong arrangement parts, they figured they had the problem located, and quit looking. I probably would have. Unfortunately, they didn't dig deep enough. So they carry a little blame there, but I'm not sure its the same as if they had gotten the dozer from original problem, instead of after the first repair by steve.

Should steve have kept running it after it was obviously not right, after getting it home from the cat man? I don't think so. That's not on CAT.

Steve asked cat to fix it, he's on the hook for the bill. I think steve's being a stand up guy here, and its probably going to hurt. But he knew cat doesn't work cheap, and that's where he took it.

Sometimes we all have to take our lumps with big equipment. It stinks for steve, but I'd like to think I would handle it with the same attitude/ outlook that steve has expressed here.

 

[Steve.ahlgren85]

I guess I wouldn't be so quick to jump all over cat about this, and I'm not much for lawyers. If you think cat's bill is bad, it's nothing like lawyer bills. And Cat probably has their own on retainer. Maybe I just hate lawyers.

I think a lawyer is just going to mean he can pay a lawyer, and cat, and a year or so from now he might see his dozer, and he'll have wasted even more of his time/life.

If you guys remember, this isn't originally cat's problem. Steve lost a engine, and got a reman from a supplier, and installed it. There were some arrangement problems with the reman engine, and probably a guy familiar with these engines would have caught it, but steve didn't. Reman didn't make it. (wrong oiling set up, if I remember right). I don't think that was on the reman supplier.

After the first reman failed, steve then called in the cat guys. They found the arrangement problem, and put it back together. They kind of started in the middle of this problem, which is a horrible way to jump into a problem, and they knew steve probably didn't want to spend any more $ than he had too, having already been burned once. They dug into it, found the wrong oiler set up, and figured they had it.

The cat man is in a no win situation. Customer tried to fix old dozer himself, messed it up, and now they get thrown in.

IF they go through every possible thing on the dozer, customer is probably upset, because he didn't want his radiator, transmission, torque converter, fuel injection system, finals, or whatever else, all gone through. If they go through everything else, they may have not found anything else, but it sure would have been nice if they had checked the radiator.

When they found the wrong arrangement parts, they figured they had the problem located, and quit looking. I probably would have. Unfortunately, they didn't dig deep enough. So they carry a little blame there, but I'm not sure its the same as if they had gotten the dozer from original problem, instead of after the first repair by steve.

Should steve have kept running it after it was obviously not right, after getting it home from the cat man? I don't think so. That's not on CAT.

Steve asked cat to fix it, he's on the hook for the bill. I think steve's being a stand up guy here, and its probably going to hurt. But he knew cat doesn't work cheap, and that's where he took it.

Sometimes we all have to take our lumps with big equipment. It stinks for steve, but I'd like to think I would handle it with the same attitude/ outlook that steve has expressed here.

I think that you said it very well .I have no one to blame but myself .Thanks

 

[Hobbytime]

To be fair to Ziegler caterpillar, they offered to buy the machine from me for a not too bad price .The replacement parts that they installed were aftermarket parts from Capital Exchange ,that they covered, price wise ,so they are not warranted by Ziegler .Ziegler originally said that they were going to replace the parts ,at their expense on the second rebuild, but they seem to have forgotten about that. They deducted the engine troubleshooting and half of the transport costs from my farm ,but that was all they were going to do for me. Little guy looses again!

if they will buy it even if you lose a few thousand..jump on it and move on, if your gona lose both your nuts and an arm, I would consult a lawyer.. your call to make... then if you need a dozer try and find a reputable seller that will give you a warranty, even better see if you cant rent the machine and use the hell out of it to make sure it runs good before buying...also your sanity is worth something in the big picture..

 

[CavinJim]

I have no one to blame but myself

I disagree. Steve, I've followed this thread from the beginning, and was sure hoping for a different outcome! Yes, you do have some responsibility in the mess--but I don't think you bear the brunt of the blame. There are too many things that don't add up (these are to the best of my memory and I might be off in left field somewhere):

1. Several very knowledgeable folks here cast serious doubt on the theory that a bad arrangement would have starved the upper end enough to cause the damage seen in the failure of the first reman engine.
2. When you took it to Ziegler for repair, there was an understanding there that you would receive, in return, a working machine. There's an implied contract there.
3. They returned the dozer to you in a state that precipitated another failure--they supposedly had tested it before delivery, why didn't they catch any problems at that point? If the radiator was plugged enough to cause the engine to fail while driving across a field--then they should have caught that in their own testing. I rather doubt they did much "testing" before just giving it back to you--which may be considered a breach of contract.
4. The "bad temperature gauge"--how did Ziegler determine that the gauge was bad? Was it getting hot and the gauge not registering? That raises the possibility that they did test the dozer and overheated it before noticing that the gauge was bad. Suppose a clogged radiator was really the issue all along AND the temperature gauge was bad. They tested the machine, notice it is very hot but the gauge is not registering hot, they replace the "bad gauge" and then what? No more testing? IF Ziegler's argument is correct, that the radiator was the problem--then it stands to reason that it is also probable that they, themselves, damaged the engine before they ever returned it to you. I'll bet they even know that.
5. They're behavior reeks of a manager asking "what's up with the 6c in bay 4"? And getting the whole story about how they're going to have to eat the cost because they messed up. The manager says, "Oh, no, we're not.... tell the customer he's responsible because of the clogged radiator."

There is ample evidence that they are trying to cover their own problem:
1. They know you are not a contractor and cannot afford to throw money at machinery
2. They know you already tried the "cheap" fix, so they must assume that you don't have unlimited funds.
3. They went ahead and did the repair without telling you exactly how much it was going to cost you--considering 1 & 2--why would they sink that much of their own time and money into a repair when they knew, without a doubt, that you were unlikely to be able to cover the cost?

My take--after their rebuild failed, they realized they gave you a faulty machine. Someone there agreed to fix it at their expense. That person got overruled and they are trying to blame it on a problem that they should have, by all rights, have caught in earlier testing--but they didn't and in missing it possibly damaged their first rebuild.

I'm not one to run to a lawyer for stuff--but there are times when it is appropriate and a letter from an attorney can work wonders. If there is any possibility of negligence on their part (which there is), you would have your dozer back very quickly.

 

[Vetech63]

Man this is f**ked up. Talk to a lawyer for sure. It's worth a few hundred to know your legal options. I don't buy anything they're telling you. Unless you haven't told us the entire true story I don't see how they're not liable. Not saying you're misleading us just putting that contingency out there. They're damn sure responsible for some of the issues.

If I had a machine with a fresh O/H from somebody else exhibiting those symptoms I would most likely decline the job but IF I took it on I would start from the front and work my way back. While an engine is a complete component in and of itself there are ancillary components that must function properly for it to operate correctly. Instinctively I don't trust other people's work. Trust but verify you could say.

Given the background of this machine and having been fought on bills before I would sure think Cat would be doing all they could to cover their a$$. Or in this case they're cornholing you as a way to cover their culpability.

I hate if for you. What a nightmare to deal with. I guess ultimately you will do what's best for you and only you know what that is. I'm a fighter myself, sometimes principal over $$. Have your bank do a draft that's good when you've put 100 hours on it....lol

Well spoken!

 

[Vetech63]

I disagree. Steve, I've followed this thread from the beginning, and was sure hoping for a different outcome! Yes, you do have some responsibility in the mess--but I don't think you bear the brunt of the blame. There are too many things that don't add up (these are to the best of my memory and I might be off in left field somewhere):

1. Several very knowledgeable folks here cast serious doubt on the theory that a bad arrangement would have starved the upper end enough to cause the damage seen in the failure of the first reman engine.
2. When you took it to Ziegler for repair, there was an understanding there that you would receive, in return, a working machine. There's an implied contract there.
3. They returned the dozer to you in a state that precipitated another failure--they supposedly had tested it before delivery, why didn't they catch any problems at that point? If the radiator was plugged enough to cause the engine to fail while driving across a field--then they should have caught that in their own testing. I rather doubt they did much "testing" before just giving it back to you--which may be considered a breach of contract.
4. The "bad temperature gauge"--how did Ziegler determine that the gauge was bad? Was it getting hot and the gauge not registering? That raises the possibility that they did test the dozer and overheated it before noticing that the gauge was bad. Suppose a clogged radiator was really the issue all along AND the temperature gauge was bad. They tested the machine, notice it is very hot but the gauge is not registering hot, they replace the "bad gauge" and then what? No more testing? IF Ziegler's argument is correct, that the radiator was the problem--then it stands to reason that it is also probable that they, themselves, damaged the engine before they ever returned it to you. I'll bet they even know that.
5. They're behavior reeks of a manager asking "what's up with the 6c in bay 4"? And getting the whole story about how they're going to have to eat the cost because they messed up. The manager says, "Oh, no, we're not.... tell the customer he's responsible because of the clogged radiator."

There is ample evidence that they are trying to cover their own problem:
1. They know you are not a contractor and cannot afford to throw money at machinery
2. They know you already tried the "cheap" fix, so they must assume that you don't have unlimited funds.
3. They went ahead and did the repair without telling you exactly how much it was going to cost you--considering 1 & 2--why would they sink that much of their own time and money into a repair when they knew, without a doubt, that you were unlikely to be able to cover the cost?

My take--after their rebuild failed, they realized they gave you a faulty machine. Someone there agreed to fix it at their expense. That person got overruled and they are trying to blame it on a problem that they should have, by all rights, have caught in earlier testing--but they didn't and in missing it possibly damaged their first rebuild.

I'm not one to run to a lawyer for stuff--but there are times when it is appropriate and a letter from an attorney can work wonders. If there is any possibility of negligence on their part (which there is), you would have your dozer back very quickly.

HOLY $hit.......even MORE well spoken advice!

 

[oldirt]

don't forget this, Steve : IT IS NOT YOUR FAULT.

once cat service manager took over and promised to fix your tractor correctly and then completely fubar'ed it they now have all the responsibility in the whole matter.

 

[old-iron-habit]

My last word on this. If you tell Cat to keep the machine, they will sell it. Any costs that the selling of the machine does not cover will most likely still considered your responsibility to pay. If you do go that route, insure you get a signed document that releases you of all charges, in exchange for them keeping the machine. I wish this had a different ending.

Steve, I admire your tenacity and the ability to keep your head up during this long, real life lesson, process. You will be considerable more knowledgeable and perhaps better off because of it in the long run. Good Luck and thank you for helping us all with our continuing education.

 

[kshansen]

My take--after their rebuild failed, they realized they gave you a faulty machine. Someone there agreed to fix it at their expense. That person got overruled and they are trying to blame it on a problem that they should have, by all rights, have caught in earlier testing--but they didn't and in missing it possibly damaged their first rebuild.

I'm not one to run to a lawyer for stuff--but there are times when it is appropriate and a letter from an attorney can work wonders. If there is any possibility of negligence on their part (which there is), you would have your dozer back very quickly.

I too feel that at least an attempt to see if a letter from a lawyer would do some good.

It would be one thing if you had taken this machine to Fred's lawnmower shop to have the work done. But you took it to what SHOULD have been the best and most knowledgeable group of people in the state who have direct access to the manufacture of the machine!

Unless you gave them detailed instructions on what you wanted them to do and what you did not want them to do I have to feel they hold 90% of the responsibility for the failure.

To me it's like if they and done the job and gave the machine back to you without checking the air filter or the piping to the engine from the air filter.

If I recall, I'm not about to read back through over 850 pages to find out, this machine was taken to them after a extremely low hour failure of the previous engine repair. To me the first thing that should have been done after dismantling that failed engine would have been a in depth investigation into the cause of that failure! At that point if they had found the radiator plugged then, yes it would be your fault.

 

[Steve.ahlgren85]

They didn't look for anything other than the wrong rocker assembly installed by me. I just talked to them again this morning and the service manager said that they weren't looking for anything else ,in their minds, that was the only explanation for the engine failure #1.Chris,did say that they poured water down from top to bottom of the radiator, found that it did run out the bottom ,imagine that !!!

 

[Tinkerer]

I sure admire your patience Steve. If it were me I would wait and see how they handle the final outcome of the repair bill /charges. Don't P#ss them off till then with a lawyers letter. There still may be hope that they will do right by you.
Good grief you waited this long whats another month or two ?