New Synthetic Hoist Lines

[crane operator]

I've been sitting precast all day- so tend to think too much.
The wind was blowing about 15-20mph today, and as I swung off the building, the cable chokers (30') were back swayed a little with the wind, but the 15' tag line was trailing back 10'. I've seen the hoist cable have sway / bow from wind also.

They have been advertising new synthetic hoist lines for big all terrain cranes (liebherr). They can save weight/ gain chart by installing synthetic hoist lines -think 6 parts of line with 200' of boom- that's a lot of cable weight.
Here's my issue:
What's that hoist line going to look like with 200-300' of boom with only a ball hanging from some 250 ton crane, with a 20 mph wind? It's going to be flip flopping around like mad. Or have 50' of back/side drift downwind. I've had the hoist line, going up the back of the boom, flop around pretty good in the wind- I've seen them flip around and hook on a jib bracket. Sometimes if you're turned to the wind right it will set up a side to side motion that rocks the crane. That light synthetic stuff is going to be way worse. Ever watch your A2B cable flop around on the side of the boom?

The synthetic lines can take no abrasion at all. Think how nice that will be to replace 1500' of it on a winch when the wind pops it over a sheave, or you line down through some I- beams setting steel, and they drift you against the upper steel, or against precast concrete. Setting pumps in a concrete sewer riser? Threading a downspout in a feed mill. All places you can get your hoist line up against steel or other abrasions. I'm sure the engineers will say "that's not supposed to happen".

I don't think the engineer's ever put that kind of stuff in their modeling, they shouldn't let those guys near a new crane until they've run one for 5 years. This is great cheap way to gain a thousand pounds of chart, but there's no way anyone with any real world crane experience can think this a good solution.

 

[Scrub Puller]

Yair . . .
Gotcha D D . . . I can't even get my head around using them on a 4x4 winch . . . some gf the crazy angles I've winched at.

Cheers.

 

[Knepptune]

One of those "sounds good on paper deals". Just doesn't seem real feasible.

I can't see that stuff being around long. But then again they're starting to make engines out of hi-tech plastics so what do I know.

 

[ol'stonebreaker]

I tried the synthetic rope on my wheeler winch and with just a little pull the load line would pull down between the wraps on the drum. It's no longer on it. It's wrapped up on the front rack in case I need to reach out another 50 feet.
Mike

 

[redneckracin]

We used the synthetic winch lines underground all the time on the scoops. They are much safer than the steel since they don't recoil and take your head off. You are correct about the abrasion being a big deal. A square corner with the line under tension and it was all over. The problem with the lines pulling down between the wraps was due to an improper winding. You have to wind them up under load or they will dive between the wraps on the drum.

 

[hvy 1ton]

I had use a tractor in neutral as a weight to get a good wrap with my synthetic line, but i haven't had any issues since.

 

[GrainBinMan]

Does this crane have the synthetic rope? Or is that just a colored (non-greased ) wire rope?

And am I seeing a wind speed monitor on the boom? Is that standard equipment? First, I've ever seen that.

 

[crane operator]

Wind speed indicators have been on the large all terrains (150 ton and up) for more than 20 years. They have been gradually working their way down to the smaller cranes. Liability-- "you should have shut down because it was windy- the data logger says so", etc. In some ways it helps the operator "it's too windy to work- the gauge says so".

Yes that is synthetic rope. I read a article the other day, praising the synthetic rope, and the "customer" was happy to have the synthetic rope, because it made the crane lighter, so then they could travel with more counterweight hanging. So we remove counterweight (cable) to add counterweight, (weights).

I bet with the synthetic rope they have some fancy braided end on it, won't be easy to just cut off 20' of bad cable will it?

Also- that tilting cab is nice if you're working on a cell tower all day. But I tend to have a little too much stuff in the cab, and it all rolls to the back when you tilt. Kind of like the old cabover trucks, only instead of it all ending up on, or under the dash, its all fallen back under the seat.

 

[cranesafety]

Wind speed indicators have been on the large all terrains (150 ton and up) for more than 20 years. They have been gradually working their way down to the smaller cranes. Liability-- "you should have shut down because it was windy- the data logger says so", etc. In some ways it helps the operator "it's too windy to work- the gauge says so".

Yes that is synthetic rope. I read a article the other day, praising the synthetic rope, and the "customer" was happy to have the synthetic rope, because it made the crane lighter, so then they could travel with more counterweight hanging. So we remove counterweight (cable) to add counterweight, (weights).

I bet with the synthetic rope they have some fancy braided end on it, won't be easy to just cut off 20' of bad cable will it?

Also- that tilting cab is nice if you're working on a cell tower all day. But I tend to have a little too much stuff in the cab, and it all rolls to the back when you tilt. Kind of like the old cabover trucks, only instead of it all ending up on, or under the dash, its all fallen back under the seat.

Hello, I am a new member to HEF and am posting for the first time. I find the site to be very informative and commend all who are active in discussions. There is a wealth of knowledge and experience in here and I hope to contribute as well.

I am a crane inspector and active member of the Crane Certification Association of America (CCAA). The purpose of the Association is to promote a safe environment for the hoisting and lifting industry by improving the crane inspection and certification profession.

The CCAA typically holds two educational conferences a year in various cities. We have been fortunate to coordinate several plant tours to coincide with the meetings. Last August, we were hosted by Samson Rope Technologies, Inc. in Ferndale, WA. Samson manufactures the K-100 synthetic hoist lines. K-100 is the first synthetic hoist rope designed specifically for mobile cranes.

This was of particular interest to many of our professional members who regularly inspect and certify cranes. How do we inspect the rope? What is the wear criteria? What happens when the rope dives on the drum? I can say that we all came away with a better understanding of the rope.

The plant tour was incredible and included some hands-on training with rope construction, fiber characteristics, splicing, rope inspection and Timco synthetic sheaves. The tour culminated with a powerful demonstration of a break test. The specimen was an offshore rope which finally failed with a bang, somewhere in excess of 500,000lbs..

In March of 2017, it was announced that Link-Belt has approved the use of K-100 synthetic crane hoist line on their telescopic cranes. With the addition of Link-Belt, K-100 is approved for use on select crane models from five crane manufacturers including Manitowoc’s newest Grove series of mobile cranes.

I am an overhead crane inspector and have not seen the rope applied to EOT crane yet. However, I think you mobile guys will be seeing more and more of this in the future. Seeing is believing and although the rope may not be suited to all applications it has some notable advantages in most applications.

If you have any questions or concerns, I would respectfully refer you to the Samson K-100 home page. There is a lot of useful information on the site including instructions for inspection and splicing. http://samsonrope.com/Pages/Cranes.aspx

You can learn more about the CCAA and our plant tour at Samson in our October-2016 Newsletter, available online at: www.cranecertification.org

 

[crane operator]

There is a lot of useful information on the site including instructions for inspection and splicing.

I was talking to my rigging supplier, they make some rigging with synthetic rope, and we were talking about winch lines. He hadn't seen them in the crane application, and said "I suppose if you got a bad spot, you could just splice it". I don't think I'm splicing any winch line.

I don't think anyone is doubting the strength of the synthetic, we've been using it for years in endless round slings. I think the winch line application is a "engineer's" solution to get a little more chart, without realizing that it will never stand up in real world application. Cranes spend a ton of time setting steel and precast, inbetween upright steel risers, the hoist line will come into contact with steel and concrete. Synthetic will not stand up to that.

I also watched the samson video- I love the gaps and skips in their drum where the stupid stuff won't even spool up nice new. You'd think in a promo video you'd at least try to make it look good.

Also he says in the video they can make the ball and block lighter because the cable is lighter. Sure- lets have the wind whistling along at 25 mph and see how that works with a 25 lb ball at the end of 200' of boom. Idiots.

So tell me on a 300 ton crane with 1500' of cable/rope, when that sucker dives down 10 wraps you're going to pull that sucker out? It's easy for him to say it in the video, wait till it happens setting some 150,000lb generator and the loads in the air, and he can't let it down because it dove into the drum with the high line pull. I'd love to hear that phone conversation.

Check out the top side of any crane boom, the paint will be worn where the cable bounces around going down the road and the wind bops it up and down (someone was teasing me about mine on another post). How's that synthetic going to handle that? What about every joint on the top of the boom with boom deflection the cable rides right over the top of that joint, now we need rollers on the top of every boom section joint? (bigger cranes have that already, I know- most smaller rigs don't, means more wear items to do the same job).

And maybe I'm all wrong and this is going to be a great thing in the industry, but I think its a great way for sampson to sell rope, and may not be great for the end user.

Don't take this as a personal deal to you cranesafety- I love having different viewpoints, and I'm all for innovation. Thanks for posting, and welcome- there's a lot of great knowledge here. I'm sure samson puts on a great dog and pony show to sell new rope, I'm just skeptical I guess.

There's a great aussie on here who loves to comment "scrub puller" :

The dirt and the rocks and the trees remain the same, it's only the equipment that has become complex and fragile.

 

[cranesafety]

Crane Operator, I appreciate your straight forward response. Not personal to me at all. Just want to let the forum know there is a resource out there for more information on the topic.

 

[Natman]

Talking about wind speed indicators: as I just ordered a new wind sock for my home grass runway, I need to make real sure I don't mistakenly write the $45.00 cost of it off as "crane biz expenses". Then again, having one at the crane yard could be totally justified, come a audit, "as a necessary aid to determine the wind strength", before heading out for a job. I do carry a old hand held wind speed indicator, used mostly by hang glider pilots and yachtsmen, in the crane, to show an OSHA guy, if ever asked, that I do indeed have a means to determine the wind strength.

That synthetic line flapping on the boom may at least be easier on the paint job, and who knows, maybe it would just "lay down" and not rhythmically flap like wire rope does. That is a possibility aerodynamically, just because our wire rope does it doesn't mean it would, though I for sure think it could be a deal breaker if it did it even worse. Good point CO.

 

[Kiwi-truckwit]

To be fair, 25mph winds are above the rated limit of most cranes (although we all do what we need to do)

 

[Knepptune]

Hey crane op.
Next time don't hold back, I'd like to know how you really feel. Btw I agree

Honestly the rope spooling on the hoist is what I can't see holding up. For steel cable to dive your hoist really has to be a mess. If your cable is spooled right you can go right from light repetive loads to max line pull and not hurt the cable. I want to know how that rope is gonna act after having virtually no load to a 15k line pull. Watching the video of low load rope spooling vs high load spooling concerns me. The difference is scary.

Another question I have, what about sun and rain. I've always been instructed to keep synthetic slings out of constant sunlight and keep them. What happens if I get rained out and have to leave the crane onsite over night. Will that synthetic rope not soak up a ton of water. The bottom layer of rope/cable doesn't see daylight very often. Does it need to be dried out. That would be fun. What about an RT crane on a year long project. Is the rope going to hold up to constant sunlight, dew every morning, getting soaked once a week. These are honest questions. I see they exposed it to simulated Florida sunlight. Can they be realistic and soak it once a week?

The only people that like this idea are the ones who sell rope or the crane salesman that can sell more load chart with the same crane. None of the people who will end up on the jobsite trying to make this stuff work think this is a good idea.


Hopefully this is an idea that just goes away.

Btw welcome to the forum. We're normally a friendlier group of people. We just don't like change. Lol or I don't.

 

[crane operator]

I'm just all cranky because I'm still hunting a ring gear, may have one spotted in Latvia. No- I'm not kidding.

 

[m16ty]

My main concerns have already been stated, soaking up moisture, sunlight damage, and abrasion damage. Just like everything new, there may be a day in time where it is superior to wire rope, they aren't there yet.

Only people I ever see using it is electric companies. They use it because it's non-conductive. Before synthetics, they used plain old rope on their smaller cranes.

 

[Birken Vogt]

The power company here uses a lot of synthetic rope (for obvious reasons) and I usually see it laying on their drums real nice looking. I don't know what the deal is. About 5/8" or 3/4" is how it appears.

 

[crane operator]

The power company trucks use about 100' of cable/rope, spooling isn't near as much of a concern for them, simply because they have so little line. They might have 4 wraps on a pretty narrow drum, and just lift wooden poles, so they don't get up there too high in line pull.

While we're talking about weather conditions, seeing how some here live in a colder climate (I was once crazy like them). What happens when it snows,and/or rains, and then freezes the drum with the synthetic. We had some roundups get rained on then frozen, they stand up like a cobra. What will that do on a winch line? The power company boys usually have their trucks inside, but they work in some nasty conditions sometimes.

That would be a sight, a birds nest on a 1500' drum, when the synthetic freezes to itself. I've had to take a weed burner to a cable winch to free it up (ice)- don't think you would want to do that with a synthetic line either. I know- rope heaters and covers- if your expecting those conditions. I should be a engineer.