D9G or D9H - What do you recommend?

[Passionhawk1]

If you're diagnosing head gasket problems in an off-road diesel engine and coming at it from an automotive background, you're only going to get so far. The big difference is the wet cylinder liners. The liner flanges will suffer from erosion from not using the correct coolant, and early models suffer from the same problem at high hours even with good coolant. The result is what's called a "dropped" liner which relaxes the grip on the head gasket fire-ring.

It's all (usually) fixable, but if you get away with a head gasket and new/skimmed head, consider yourself lucky.

Hello Cmark:

There are two tractors. One is a '67 and the other is a '72. The '67 has a bad clutch and the '72 has the gasquet issue. I've heard the sad story about putting in the wrong glycol into a diesel engine. I'm glad you reminded me of how one can ruin the sleeves. I think both engines are 3208s in the D8H. I also think they are both 270 HP. I'm going to hire someone to inspect both rigs and give me an assessment.

Yes, it's all fixable. Everything is fixable if you throw enough time and money at it.

For my general knowledge, when did the "wet cylinder" issue go away - and with what model Cat engine?

Thank you for your comment and observation. Good call.

Kindest Regards,
Jim Mitchell
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[Passionhawk1]

I am reading that a D8K is easier to operate than a D8H. Why is that?

Were 1967 D8H tractors direct start or did they still start with a pony?

Sincerely,
Jim Mitchell
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[John Shipp]

Hi Jim,

Been enjoying your thread here since you first posted, cheers, sounds like a fun project you're involved with there.

Re. your last post, I used to owner-operate a '72 D8H. It was a great tractor to run, with the powershift. Throttle full on, right foot on the de accelerator pedal. Left foot on a brake pedal when needed, or pushing on both in the middle if inching forward. Left hand clutches, right hand on hydraulic levers. No trouble at all, easy.

From my limited time on a D8K, when I was considering spending twice as much to upgrade from the H to a K was that they were more powerful (closer to 400hp I was told?) which probably makes some jobs easier, and if I remember right they had a combined clutch/brake handle. This looked the same, but had a two stage pull with the brake applied at the second stage. I wasn't too bothered by this extra feature, being quite happy to have a job for my left foot, but it may be easier to operate?? Maybe someone else will know, as I didn't have much time on it and may have it wrong!

Cab wise the K had much more stylish cab, which might make you want to sit on the machine longer hours? The K I looked at was something like a '80 model or thereabouts, was somehow a more modern looking beast.

If you can find a clean K in good order, they really seem to be a classic, but the H was simple to operate and pretty reliable, for me anyway.

All the best, wish I was in your neighborhood as would be fun to scout about after a D8 again!

John

 

[Passionhawk1]

Hi Jim,

Been enjoying your thread here since you first posted, cheers, sounds like a fun project you're involved with there.

Re. your last post, I used to owner-operate a '72 D8H. It was a great tractor to run, with the powershift. Throttle full on, right foot on the de accelerator pedal. Left foot on a brake pedal when needed, or pushing on both in the middle if inching forward. Left hand clutches, right hand on hydraulic levers. No trouble at all, easy.

From my limited time on a D8K, when I was considering spending twice as much to upgrade from the H to a K was that they were more powerful (closer to 400hp I was told?) which probably makes some jobs easier, and if I remember right they had a combined clutch/brake handle. This looked the same, but had a two stage pull with the brake applied at the second stage. I wasn't too bothered by this extra feature, being quite happy to have a job for my left foot, but it may be easier to operate?? Maybe someone else will know, as I didn't have much time on it and may have it wrong!

Cab wise the K had much more stylish cab, which might make you want to sit on the machine longer hours? The K I looked at was something like a '80 model or thereabouts, was somehow a more modern looking beast.

If you can find a clean K in good order, they really seem to be a classic, but the H was simple to operate and pretty reliable, for me anyway.

All the best, wish I was in your neighborhood as would be fun to scout about after a D8 again!

John

Great post, John:

Now I get it. The K was considered easier to operate because everything (clutch and brake) could be operated from the handle. That's a non-starter for me because I first learned with the long-handle frictions off the floor, brakes, hard clutch lever on the left in or out. So, that's no biggie for me.

Short story. When I was 12 years old, I use to hitch rides with the log truck drivers into town. I lived waaaaay out in the mountains with no electricity, outhouse and baths in the lake. I was always fascinated to watch them go through all the gears with a 3-speed brownie. The engine cowling on those long-nose Petes, Macks and Autocars would shake back and forth and the torque of the engine would crank them to the side as they threw each gear. Thus, when I bought my first 12-yard dump truck, I got an old 15-speed White Western Star. What a thrill and a joy to walk through all the gears! Gears and pedals and clutches and tiller-control blades? It wouldn't be fun to operate any other way, IMHO.

I'm going to do the excavator/tractor combination so I think the H models will be fine for dozing off over-burden. Really nice to read your experience level. One thing I'll do is install a different seat for comfort. I do know it's nice on later models with the seat canted sideways so it's easier for old guys (like me) to crane about and look back at the angle on the dangle of the ripper.

John, I wish you lived closer bye too because I could sure use an experienced eye.

Kindest Regards,
Jim Mitchell
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[d9gdon]

The engine in a D8H is a D342.

The D8K was 300hp with the same engine. It pushed the limit with that horsepower rating and generally wasn't quite as reliable as the D8H.

 

[John Shipp]

Thanks, Jim.

Yes, I forgot about the seat. Was pretty basic on the H. I had the idea to change it, but never did. Perhaps it wasn't so bad in the end, it was some heavy duty shiny fabric so allowed you too change position fairly easy. Also, using all corners of your body to run it meant you had to sit more or less square on. I remember having a go on a D8L (1st of the high drives) this had the tiller on the left and did allow you to look over shoulder easier!

On the excavator side of things, it would seem a great way to scratch out seams with more detail than a dozer, also may be more comfortable for turning over boulders compared to climbing over it all on a dozer. Just wondering if a 345 doesn't put you back in the D9G league regarding spare part cost, fuel etc. Great if you're using all that power etc, but if you doing a lot of 4" tickling about just wonder whether you're at any advantage with that size? I can see where a 15 ton machine might be smaller than the rocks, but something in the 320,325 or 330 size may be able to give you some power while still being something you'd grade with? I may be way off here, but reading your list of equipment it seems that a 345 is not matched to the size of your other machinery.

Again, whichever one you buy, it sounds good to me. Did you say you know a good Cat mechanic? If you can find someone close by that knows their stuff, you'll be all set. These days that factor is top of my list when buying any machine, who can I buy parts from and who will help fix it if the repair is beyond me!

All the best, John.

 

[Passionhawk1]

The engine in a D8H is a D342.

The D8K was 300hp with the same engine. It pushed the limit with that horsepower rating and generally wasn't quite as reliable as the D8H.

Hello d9gdon:

The D8H Cats are both 270 HP with turbos. Surely enough muscle to move things about. I'm awaiting quotes for repairs of both machines. The machines have been well-maintained with a pile of service records. I spoke with the mechanic who has done all the maintenance and he will do the misc repairs. A company that does nothing but blocks will replace the head and do that work in the machine.

Thanks for the HP information on the D8K.

Kindest Regards,
Jim Mitchell
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[Passionhawk1]

Thanks, Jim.

Yes, I forgot about the seat. Was pretty basic on the H. I had the idea to change it, but never did. Perhaps it wasn't so bad in the end, it was some heavy duty shiny fabric so allowed you too change position fairly easy. Also, using all corners of your body to run it meant you had to sit more or less square on. I remember having a go on a D8L (1st of the high drives) this had the tiller on the left and did allow you to look over shoulder easier!

On the excavator side of things, it would seem a great way to scratch out seams with more detail than a dozer, also may be more comfortable for turning over boulders compared to climbing over it all on a dozer. Just wondering if a 345 doesn't put you back in the D9G league regarding spare part cost, fuel etc. Great if you're using all that power etc, but if you doing a lot of 4" tickling about just wonder whether you're at any advantage with that size? I can see where a 15 ton machine might be smaller than the rocks, but something in the 320,325 or 330 size may be able to give you some power while still being something you'd grade with? I may be way off here, but reading your list of equipment it seems that a 345 is not matched to the size of your other machinery.

Again, whichever one you buy, it sounds good to me. Did you say you know a good Cat mechanic? If you can find someone close by that knows their stuff, you'll be all set. These days that factor is top of my list when buying any machine, who can I buy parts from and who will help fix it if the repair is beyond me!

All the best, John.

Hello again, John:

I make this observation. As for the older machines beating up the operator, consider this; It's one thing to doze a road or push a scraper. It's quite another to take back layers of ground and be watching for new quartz veins with gold. A guy gets so excited about what may lay under the next scrape that he doesn't have a mindset to feel the bumps, jolts and slams.

Yes, the D8L and D9L were both highly recommended. If I coulda I woulda. Trouble is, I couldn't find any remotely close to the region with the right price. I found a primo D9H back east in Ohio. New Cat-installed engine, 95% UC, new pads, new finals but the transport costs were twice as much as the tractor itself! Crazy.

The only thing enticing about the 345BL is that it's a Cat, it's close bye, mechanically sound, big enough to handle anything and the price is right. Even close bye, the transportation is enormous. There are much smaller machines much closer to me. They're in the 14-30 ton class and they're made in Braziliayugchinafangtagio. Not good when they're not a good 'ol Caterpillar. You know what the ladies say. "Ain't never been no darned diamond too big to wear." Can the same be said about an excavator? I mean, I can pick almost anything apart with just a backhoe. Lifting or sliding large boulders? Nyet. Breaking off big chunks of rock or sliding them out of the way? Double Nyet. I'm not fearful of the 345's size. Fuel consumption? Oh man, that's a choker at 15 GPH.

I've got a mechanic who will bring the D8H tractors up to speed where they sit. Haven't found a local mechanic yet to work on the equipment once it hits the mine site.

Sort of funny. The seller said, "You know, these D8s are two great machines. Only reason we're selling them is because these young kids we've got hired don't know how to care for the equipment. They slam 'em back and forth, lug them down, overheat the engines - you can't find any decent operators anymore. So we bought two new ones that essentially drive themselves and shut down when they're too hot or anything goes wrong. Otherwise, we'd still be using those two dozers. Still a lot of life left in them if a guy knows how they need to operate." I thought, "Leave it to me. I'm one of the pros from Dover." A famous Alan Alda line from MASH.

Kindest Regards,
Jim Mitchell
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[lantraxco]

Funny, a customer of mine a decade or so ago mentioned to me a problem he had with an operator locking up the transmission of a D8, H or K I can't recall, but it would just kind of bind up and stop several times a day. Put the young operator on a newer machine, assigned a "guy with gray hair" to the old CAT, no more trouble. You take one at a time, wait for it to get happy, then when you're happy, you take another. Same goes with reversing, gotta wait for all the clutches and valve doohickies to align with the stars and all is well... rush them and somebody gets out of step and the marching band runs into the goalposts... YMMV

 

[Passionhawk1]

Funny, a customer of mine a decade or so ago mentioned to me a problem he had with an operator locking up the transmission of a D8, H or K I can't recall, but it would just kind of bind up and stop several times a day. Put the young operator on a newer machine, assigned a "guy with gray hair" to the old CAT, no more trouble. You take one at a time, wait for it to get happy, then when you're happy, you take another. Same goes with reversing, gotta wait for all the clutches and valve doohickies to align with the stars and all is well... rush them and somebody gets out of step and the marching band runs into the goalposts... YMMV

Lantraxco, that's so funny and sooooooo true. You either "feel" the equipment or ride the bus, right?

I had an old White Western Star with a 15-speed. I bought it from the Forest Service in Hang town. Old Scotsman told me, "I'm the only one who's brave enough to drive this darn rig. She's beautiful but she's humbled so many of our drivers that the rest of the guys refuse to drive it. That's why they're selling it. Breaks my heart." It had an interlocking rear end which put the rear wheels in sync and that truck would climb anything you were brave enough to try. Well, I won the auction and I drove it back to Reno. Next day, I left the studio to get it serviced. I got to the first busy intersection, double-clutched and missed it by a country mile. No matter what I did, that bugger wouldn't slide into gear. I double clutched again, I revved - tried the next gear, went back to the first, revved some more and that sucker had my lunch right there on the spot. People are honking at me and swerving around the truck and giving me the one-finger salute. My butt is sucking munch-marks into the hard leather seat as sweat poured off my forehead. Had to bring that SOB to a complete stop in the middle of the intersection and start all over again from scratch. I mean, a COMPLETE STOP and then wait about three beats for the old girl to calm down. By that time the light had changed, of course. I felt about as tall as the little plastic man who sits atop a wedding cake. From that point on, I got my head pulled out of my backside, paid attention to what I was doing, listened to the engine and never had another problem. So yeah, if you don't have the feel, you can quickly end up as the main meal.

Kindest Regards,
Jim Mitchell
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[John Shipp]

Great line from a great movie! Even though I've never known if Dover was famous for pro's or if he was just making it up?

The 345 seems to tick some of your boxes Jim, and is undoubtedly a great machine. If it has a quickhitch fitted and you can pick up a ripper tooth for sensible money, all the better. You may have to restrain yourself to only scrape 4" at a time though! From the cab it'll look like you're tickling the dust!

Regards,

John

Also thanks for D9GDon for putting me straight on the K hp, seems I was being fed a line by the salesman, or my ears were blocked from staring at a shiny D8K...

 

[Passionhawk1]

Great line from a great movie! Even though I've never known if Dover was famous for pro's or if he was just making it up?

The 345 seems to tick some of your boxes Jim, and is undoubtedly a great machine. If it has a quickhitch fitted and you can pick up a ripper tooth for sensible money, all the better. You may have to restrain yourself to only scrape 4" at a time though! From the cab it'll look like you're tickling the dust!

Regards,

John

Also thanks for D9GDon for putting me straight on the K hp, seems I was being fed a line by the salesman, or my ears were blocked from staring at a shiny D8K...

John, I will continue to look for something else a bit smaller. If I can't find it, then I'll bite the bullet on the 345BL. I'll use the CAT for scraping and the Excavator for digging. It's got a 5-foot bucket with teeth as big as a dinosaur!

Kindest Regards,
Jim Mitchell
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[Scrub Puller]

Yair . . .

I mean, a COMPLETE STOP and then wait about three beats for the old girl to calm down

Passionhawk1. That bought a smile . . . I remember the trials and tribulations of coming to grips with quadbox Macks.

Cheers.

 

[Passionhawk1]

Yair . . .



Passionhawk1. That bought a smile . . . I remember the trials and tribulations of coming to grips with quadbox Macks.

Cheers.

Then you know exactly what I mean, Scrub Puller. Some of those old square-tooth trucks without synchromesh could fast make a proud man into one of the sorriest suckers to ever walk the face of the earth.

Kindest Regards,
Jim Mitchell
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[Junkyard]

A good friend of mine who passed away a few years ago was a master with a set of sticks. Couldn't walk and chew gum but he could run both boxes at the same time, arm through the steering wheel and not loose the ash off his cigarette. He taught me a ton about heavy haul and driving two stick trucks. When I got by CDL I used one of his old macks. The examiner got in and saw the second stick. Said, "what's that one for?" I said "That's yours, I'll let you know when you need to shift." After a couple stop signs and two lights he cut the test short and said if you can alley dock you're good to go. I said why didn't we do the whole course? He laughed and said you had to have shifted 50 times and I never heard a single gear grind. You've done this a long time. I said yep, since I could reach the pedals! I think I was 18 or 19 getting my intrastate license. Of course I'd sneak out of state from time to time.... ah the good ole days!

Junkyard

 

[Passionhawk1]

The examiner got in and saw the second stick. Said, "what's that one for?" I said "That's yours, I'll let you know when you need to shift."

Junkyard

Junkyard:

What a wonderful story! You're making lots of folks smile.

Kindest Regards,
Jim Mitchell
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[nicky 68a]

I have to wonder,that if your d8h 'just needed a gasket,then why haven't they done it?
Best to see a runner in my opinion.You don't want to pick up a cracked block or one with liners that are too far sunk.
As for heads,I allways have a new fully loaded head in stock.They are not expensive on our shores

 

[nicky 68a]

Jim,I like your line on the diamond.
Too true mate.
Yer man's comments on selling the old D8's because the young drivers won't operate them ,sounds about right.
I'm still concerned that a company that has sound service records and well maintained equipment is selling a D8 with a head problem.

 

[nicky 68a]

Jim.
These are 2 of my 1974 D8H tractors which are in very good order and see around 500 hours a year.They are about 295 horsepower I think as they are on compact fuel systems which gives abit more woof.The 275 hp models are good enough for many jobs though.
Mine are used for dozer work and some scraper box work.
They will work for ever in the right hands and there is no issue in sourcing parts for them

 

[Passionhawk1]

Whoooooeeeeeee! Look at those gorgeous machines! Tracks are all tight. Bodies don't look like they've been in a mud fight - Nicky, those are gorgeous! Thank you for sharing with us. I'm jealous - in a good way.

Yes, at first blush, it does make you wonder why a company with good service records would let a machine sit idle with a bad head. I'll do a bit more investigation.

Nicky, that's a positive idea - keeping a new head for backup. No matter what I end up with - I'll sure follow that good advice.

Let me ask you a question I asked earlier. No one seemed to have the answer:

I know that when ripping, it is critical to have control of the ripper tooth angle. A D8H has a parallelogram-style ripper that only offers a fixed-ripping position. So I had a thought. Maybe a stupid thought. The upper control bars are fixed to the rear of the Cat and fixed to the top of the ripper. Why wouldn't a person take off those upper steel bars and replace them with hydraulic cylinders? All the pressure would always be a compressive force against the tractor. There would be no tension trying to pull away from the tractor. Yes, you would have a control issue but it seems that could be somewhat easily solved with a straight charge/discharge valve, a valve control lever and hoses that would adjust the tooth angle. What seems the most difficult would be finding an appropriate place to tie into the hydraulic system. Also would be an issue is that of the hydraulic pump - if it were strong enough to allow for the addition of the extra hydraulics. Maybe this is a really stupid idea but it sure seems more reasonable than buying a new Kelly Ripper.

I also read where someone is parting out a Cat and they have a 4-barrel ripper. More money.

Again, those are sweet machines. They sure look nice side by side.

Kindest Regards,
Jim Mitchell
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