Here we go again 140M DOWN

[RZucker]

I don't have first hand experience with these graders, but most C-7, C-9 engines in trucks will go to de-rate mode in the case of low oil pressure, low coolant level, or hi coolant temps. Shouldn't this be the case here too? I think the operator isn't giving the full story and the ET tattletale already has.

 

[20/80]

Liabilities are never cut and dried and almost always determined in a court of law. In the scenario presented the burden of proof unfortunately is on the owner and operator of the machine. The manufacturer will guarantee the systems worked when the machine left the factory and will further cover any warranty charges to fix those systems if found defective in workmanship or materials within the prescribed time period or hours of operation. The warranty papers specifically exclude all incidental damages to the machine, other property or bodily harm due to unsafe operation or improper maintenance. Running a machine when the alarm systems don't work is deemed unsafe operation and again the burden of proof is on the owner / operator of the machine to prove they didn't know the systems were inoperative and that there was no way for that fact to be known before the incident.

The only argument that has a chance of working comes down to inherent defect which means something that can't be seen inside the machine will cause it to fail without warning. Inherent defect is almost always a design issue which can be the kiss of death for future machine sales. So if you lost oil pressure and the alarm never sounded I would suggest you apply a pressure test to the sender and read the gauge with some independent third party observing the results. Now you have some leverage in your claim against the manufacturer.

Thanks for the info

 

[20/80]

I don't have first hand experience with these graders, but most C-7, C-9 engines in trucks will go to de-rate mode in the case of low oil pressure, low coolant level, or hi coolant temps. Shouldn't this be the case here too? I think the operator isn't giving the full story and the ET tattletale already has.

I don't know if the engine went into de-rate mode or not, and yes it could be very possible the operator or the mobile mech are not giving the full story that's the $54000 question. thanks

 

[Fatgraderman]

I'm not sure if it was Ford or maybe more than one manufacture that when you ordered a vehicle with "full set of gauges" the oil pressure "sender" was actually the same switch as used with the "idiot light" system. So if you had any oil pressure it read about 1/2 way up the gauge. It made no difference if it was one psi above the point the "idiot light" would come on for or if you had a jammed up relief valve that was going to rupture the oil filter any second, it always read right in the center!


As for the shut down systems back in say the 1970-80's we did install some of them on our quarry equipment. The one's we used had all kinds of different options available to control how they functioned. As I recall for any mobile equipment we set them up to ring a bell when there was a problem, low oil pressure, over heating and so on. On stationary equipment like a water pump, genset or drill rig those went to the shut down mode with an over ride option as needed.

I heard Ford was doing it. Dodge is too. All 2000 and newer Cummins equipped trucks have a similar setup, except they programmed the "gauge" to move so it appears realistic. Says in the manual it's setup to "reflect customers expectations". It's ran off a 6 psi Hobbs switch.

Liabilities are never cut and dried and almost always determined in a court of law. In the scenario presented the burden of proof unfortunately is on the owner and operator of the machine. The manufacturer will guarantee the systems worked when the machine left the factory and will further cover any warranty charges to fix those systems if found defective in workmanship or materials within the prescribed time period or hours of operation. The warranty papers specifically exclude all incidental damages to the machine, other property or bodily harm due to unsafe operation or improper maintenance. Running a machine when the alarm systems don't work is deemed unsafe operation and again the burden of proof is on the owner / operator of the machine to prove they didn't know the systems were inoperative and that there was no way for that fact to be known before the incident.

The only argument that has a chance of working comes down to inherent defect which means something that can't be seen inside the machine will cause it to fail without warning. Inherent defect is almost always a design issue which can be the kiss of death for future machine sales. So if you lost oil pressure and the alarm never sounded I would suggest you apply a pressure test to the sender and read the gauge with some independent third party observing the results. Now you have some leverage in your claim against the manufacturer.

I'm glad they don't shut down. Imagine if you're around a train track when it decides to shut down? Either because of low oil pressure or a faulty sender. The alarm should be obvious though. I'm not so sure they are with some machines.

 

[hvy 1ton]

The 2008 and up dodge i haved hooked to my OBD reader seem to give accurate oil pressure. My buddy that works for FCA says the same thing about the oil pressure gauge, it won't move unless an idiot light is triggered also. They also put Wide-Open-Throttle at about 75% throttle position b/c marketing found it made people "feel" the car had more power.

 

[Jim D]

I don't have any experience with a Cat engine failure, but I know second-hand about a failure, simular to the OP's, of a Cummins engine.

The ECM of the Cummins engine recorded a few hundred warnings and faults, before the engine seized. Multiple low-oil-pressure warnings. The Cat "CSI" maybe had only needed to look at the ECM memory to know what went wrong with the grader engine...

About shut-off's; I have some machines with Murphy switches that kill the engine instantly, and some that buzz for ten seconds before shunting-off the engine. In my limited experience, having the engine shutdown, on its' own, *is* dangerous, when the machine is driving on the road.

 

[20/80]

I don't have any experience with a Cat engine failure, but I know second-hand about a failure, simular to the OP's, of a Cummins engine.

The ECM of the Cummins engine recorded a few hundred warnings and faults, before the engine seized. Multiple low-oil-pressure warnings. The Cat "CSI" maybe had only needed to look at the ECM memory to know what went wrong with the grader engine...

About shut-off's; I have some machines with Murphy switches that kill the engine instantly, and some that buzz for ten seconds before shunting-off the engine. In my limited experience, having the engine shutdown, on its' own, *is* dangerous, when the machine is driving on the road.

The shut off that I was thinking of was on start up, if the oil level is below the sensor it will not start, having a engine shut down or shut off on a operator can be beyond the operators control in some circumstances, (oil plug fall out, fuel line break or simply stall your machine on a railway track by accident while watching a speeding train coming towards you while your waiting for the gauges and steering on a m series to cycle so you can move, lol, with a murphy shut down there is also" murphy law" thanks

 

[Nige]

That's why there will be a procedure in any operator manual describing how to drive through the park brake. A lot of machines it's shift into gear with the park brake on, the transmission will not go into gear and the warning will come to release the park brake. Shift back to neutral then shift into gear a 2nd time and it will go in allowing the operator to drive through it. The park brake's toast afterwards but it could be the difference between the operator dying & living.

Manufacturer's generally do not want to take control away from the operator regarding stopping the engine outside his control. All the bells & whistles will sound but it's the operator who has to stop the machine, set the park brake, and turn off the engine.

 

[20/80]

That's why there will be a procedure in any operator manual describing how to drive through the park brake. A lot of machines it's shift into gear with the park brake on, the transmission will not go into gear and the warning will come to release the park brake. Shift back to neutral then shift into gear a 2nd time and it will go in allowing the operator to drive through it. The park brake's toast afterwards but it could be the difference between the operator dying & living.

Manufacturer's generally do not want to take control away from the operator regarding stopping the engine outside his control. All the bells & whistles will sound but it's the operator who has to stop the machine, set the park brake, and turn off the engine.

Hi Nige, that is a good info to know in a emergency for the M series, and yes I agree with you, just of topic abit, something else I learned about the M series, a sales agent for Cat when our department purchased this machine 140m when we went for a demo ride he told us to go full throttle ahead 1-2-3 gear then click it in reverse without letting up on the throttle, low and behold the machine shifted very smoothly into reverse, the agent said Cat has this technology built right in the tranny of the M series to allow this, this also can be done at any throttle position as long as you don't let off the throttle, I did not know this, your thoughts?

 

[Scrub Puller]

Yair . . .

20/80. I have been told about this technology and how the "come to a full stop before changing direction" method of operation has well and truly gone . . . apparently it's standard on dozers?

I am curious as to what happens if you do let off the throttle and, after you make the shift, how you gauge precisely where the machine will stop before the change of direction.

I have also heard some local talk about an operator who suffered facial damage when he changed onto a machine without the feature.

Cheers.

 

[Shimmy1]

Yair . . .

20/80. I have been told about this technology and how the "come to a full stop before changing direction" method of operation has well and truly gone . . . apparently it's standard on dozers?

I am curious as to what happens if you do let off the throttle and, after you make the shift, how you gauge precisely where the machine will stop before the change of direction.

I have also heard some local talk about an operator who suffered facial damage when he changed onto a machine without the feature.

Cheers.

It would seem proper operating techniques are lost on a lot of today's operators. Designing a machine to compensate for reckless drivers does not create operators, but instead steering wheel holders and lever-pullers.

 

[20/80]

Yair . . .

20/80. I have been told about this technology and how the "come to a full stop before changing direction" method of operation has well and truly gone . . . apparently it's standard on dozers?

I am curious as to what happens if you do let off the throttle and, after you make the shift, how you gauge precisely where the machine will stop before the change of direction.

I have also heard some local talk about an operator who suffered facial damage when he changed onto a machine without the feature.

Cheers.

I know that if you do let off the throttle without coming to a full stop (creeping ahead abit) it will be abit jumpy if your not careful, keeping your foot on the throttle and shift, very smooth transition, the machine kinda creeps ahead 3-4ft while making the gear change smoothly to reverse, its that 3-4ft delay that you have to judge when shifting this way. thanks

 

[20/80]

It would seem proper operating techniques are lost on a lot of today's operators. Designing a machine to compensate for reckless drivers does not create operators, but instead steering wheel holders and lever-pullers.

I don't think Cats intentions were to make bad operators with this option, just another tool built into the machine to improve your ability to get things done and save time, I know first hand when doing snow removal cleaning a big intersection this option is great and does save a bit of time. thanks

 

[Nige]

Hi Nige, that is a good info to know in a emergency for the M series, and yes I agree with you, just of topic abit, something else I learned about the M series, a sales agent for Cat when our department purchased this machine 140m when we went for a demo ride he told us to go full throttle ahead 1-2-3 gear then click it in reverse without letting up on the throttle, low and behold the machine shifted very smoothly into reverse, the agent said Cat has this technology built right in the tranny of the M series to allow this, this also can be done at any throttle position as long as you don't let off the throttle, I did not know this, your thoughts?

You're referring to shuttle shifting. Our Operator Instructor's eyes went the size of overcoat buttons the first time that topic came out, followed by a "You f**king what...?" T'is all clearly spelled out in the operator manual (which I assume you have read from cover to cover..?) thusly ...........

Shuttle Shifting

Shuttle Shifting ............ allows the operator to change the machine direction quickly and with minimal disruption to the ground surface being graded. The M-Series transmission precisely controls the engagement of the direction clutch for a very smooth transition from one direction to the other. Control Throttle Shifting (CTS) is also utilized during the shuttle shift to optimize the shift. The following shifts are allowed: (The table does not copy too well unfortunately)

1F - 1R
1R - 1F Entire engine speed range
2F - 2R
2R - 2F Entire engine speed range
3F - 3R
3R - 3F Entire engine speed range
4F - 3R
4R - 3F < 1500rpm

We found from experience that trying to keep the engine below 1500RPM while making 4->3 directional shifts was a PITA and so shuttle-shifting was limited to the first 3 gears. There is also some interesting information regarding setting off from a dead stand in the manual, the procedure for which differs from what most operators are used to.

Regarding the parking brake, I suggest that you read the Safety section of the Operator Manual entitled "Park Brake Override" .............

 

[20/80]

You're referring to shuttle shifting. Our Operator Instructor's eyes went the size of overcoat buttons the first time that topic came out, followed by a "You f**king what...?" T'is all clearly spelled out in the operator manual (which I assume you have read from cover to cover..?) thusly ...........

Shuttle Shifting

Shuttle Shifting ............ allows the operator to change the machine direction quickly and with minimal disruption to the ground surface being graded. The M-Series transmission precisely controls the engagement of the direction clutch for a very smooth transition from one direction to the other. Control Throttle Shifting (CTS) is also utilized during the shuttle shift to optimize the shift. The following shifts are allowed: (The table does not copy too well unfortunately)

1F - 1R
1R - 1F Entire engine speed range
2F - 2R
2R - 2F Entire engine speed range
3F - 3R
3R - 3F Entire engine speed range
4F - 3R
4R - 3F < 1500rpm

We found from experience that trying to keep the engine below 1500RPM while making 4->3 directional shifts was a PITA and so shuttle-shifting was limited to the first 3 gears. There is also some interesting information regarding setting off from a dead stand in the manual, the procedure for which differs from what most operators are used to.

Regarding the parking brake, I suggest that you read the Safety section of the Operator Manual entitled "Park Brake Override" .............

Thanks for the info Nige, as far as reading the m series manual from cover to cover.... My main machine is the 140h which I run spring, summer, fall, I run the 140m in the wintertime but prefer the steering wheel of a H series, learned old school hard to convert, thanks

 

[Trashman]

We traded most of our Cat equipment for John Deere over the last 10 years or so. The Deere equipment runs well, but the service is lacking compared to Cat. The Deere dealer is easy to deal with and they warranty things that Cat would never cover. My operators love the 140H, but will have a bounty placed on me if I even think of buying an M series grader.:notworthy

 

[20/80]

We traded most of our Cat equipment for John Deere over the last 10 years or so. The Deere equipment runs well, but the service is lacking compared to Cat. The Deere dealer is easy to deal with and they warranty things that Cat would never cover. My operators love the 140H, but will have a bounty placed on me if I even think of buying an M series grader.:notworthy

We have a newer Deere in one of our sister shops with pretty good luck with, I would really like to try the grader pro series from Deere with the joystick and steering wheel option also a very nice looking machine, I am very happy with the 140h I run and would take it over a m series any day. thanks

 

[ovrszd]

We have a newer Deere in one of our sister shops with pretty good luck with, I would really like to try the grader pro series from Deere with the joystick and steering wheel option also a very nice looking machine, I am very happy with the 140h I run and would take it over a m series any day. thanks

I've ran two different JD GP graders. Neither extensively. Approximately 60 hours.

I've ran two different CAT M graders. Approximately 70 hours.

For long days, I like the JD GP model better than the standard rack model. Less shoulder/neck fatigue.

I like the CAT joysticks better than the JD GP setup. Although the learning curve is steeper.

I like the visibility on the JD machine better than the CAT M. I'm not a fan of the CAT M cab at all. Whoever designed that cab has never spent long days in a grader. For example, there's no place to put a cooler, so you wedge it between the seat and the side window. The cup holder is very poorly located. The cell phone holder is just slightly bigger than a credit card. Sun will cook you. Poor visibility straight forward. Poor mirror visibility with little to no visibility rearward, better have a camera.

Disclaimer, I maintain gravel roads.

 

[20/80]

I've ran two different JD GP graders. Neither extensively. Approximately 60 hours.

I've ran two different CAT M graders. Approximately 70 hours.

For long days, I like the JD GP model better than the standard rack model. Less shoulder/neck fatigue.

I like the CAT joysticks better than the JD GP setup. Although the learning curve is steeper.

I like the visibility on the JD machine better than the CAT M. I'm not a fan of the CAT M cab at all. Whoever designed that cab has never spent long days in a grader. For example, there's no place to put a cooler, so you wedge it between the seat and the side window. The cup holder is very poorly located. The cell phone holder is just slightly bigger than a credit card. Sun will cook you. Poor visibility straight forward. Poor mirror visibility with little to no visibility rearward, better have a camera.

Disclaimer, I maintain gravel roads.

I like operating the m series but the steering is where I have a problem, we may have to run 35-40 miles with all the plow gear on and the stick steering is so sensitive that you can't relax or take your eyes of the road not for one second or you could have a major collision with on coming traffic, it is 9 turns on the steering on the H series from pin to pin, its a split second on the joy stick in the M series from pin to pin and that is a major issue, these m series machines were meant to be floated to a job site not driven, you spend a 12-13 hour shift on the stick of a M series running from one road to another and you are completely wiped at the end of the day, the H series I find i'm much better at the end of the day, that is why I find the Deere grader pro so appealing you get the best of both worlds, Cat might want to look at that design, I have 60 gravel roads to maintain. thanks

 

[Fatgraderman]

You're referring to shuttle shifting. Our Operator Instructor's eyes went the size of overcoat buttons the first time that topic came out, followed by a "You f**king what...?" T'is all clearly spelled out in the operator manual (which I assume you have read from cover to cover..?) thusly ...........

Shuttle Shifting

Shuttle Shifting ............ allows the operator to change the machine direction quickly and with minimal disruption to the ground surface being graded. The M-Series transmission precisely controls the engagement of the direction clutch for a very smooth transition from one direction to the other. Control Throttle Shifting (CTS) is also utilized during the shuttle shift to optimize the shift. The following shifts are allowed: (The table does not copy too well unfortunately)

1F - 1R
1R - 1F Entire engine speed range
2F - 2R
2R - 2F Entire engine speed range
3F - 3R
3R - 3F Entire engine speed range
4F - 3R
4R - 3F < 1500rpm

We found from experience that trying to keep the engine below 1500RPM while making 4->3 directional shifts was a PITA and so shuttle-shifting was limited to the first 3 gears. There is also some interesting information regarding setting off from a dead stand in the manual, the procedure for which differs from what most operators are used to.

Regarding the parking brake, I suggest that you read the Safety section of the Operator Manual entitled "Park Brake Override" .............

Okay. Those ones don't downshift themselves to gears they can shuttle in then? In the Volvo I ran, you could shuttle in any gear, but if you were higher then say 5th (It's been a year- I don't remember for sure) it downshift down (sometimes a couple times if you were in a higher gear) and then shuttle.