Here we go again 140M DOWN

[Delmer]

...I think its a stretch to believe there would still be oil on the dipstick after a weekend of hanging in no oil.

A drop hanging on the end sure, but definitely not inside the marks. Tough situation there.

 

[Shimmy1]

I would guess it played out something like this. Machine did not have oil in it Monday morning, operator may/may not have pulled the dipstick before starting the engine. After starting and lights flashing/warning buzzer not shutting off due to lack of oil, operator shuts off engine and proceeds to investigate. After discovering the engine had no oil, and proceeding to $hit in his pants, he fills engine with oil. Crosses fingers, starts engine, lights go out, and he breathes a sigh of relief. At this point, the damage was done. Backs out of shop, loads up lunch box, heads out. We know what happens next. I don't believe that the engine would run more than a minute or two with no oil, even if it had been running synthetic and Lucas. JMO.

 

[20/80]

I would guess it played out something like this. Machine did not have oil in it Monday morning, operator may/may not have pulled the dipstick before starting the engine. After starting and lights flashing/warning buzzer not shutting off due to lack of oil, operator shuts off engine and proceeds to investigate. After discovering the engine had no oil, and proceeding to $hit in his pants, he fills engine with oil. Crosses fingers, starts engine, lights go out, and he breathes a sigh of relief. At this point, the damage was done. Backs out of shop, loads up lunch box, heads out. We know what happens next. I don't believe that the engine would run more than a minute or two with no oil, even if it had been running synthetic and Lucas. JMO.

Operator said he was about a half a mile (1km) before any light came on, also showed low oil pressure on the screen, he shut down, when the mobile mech showed up and they restarted the engine to here what was going on it sounded a lot like a couple of injectors was going, they shut down then pulled the stick, nothing on the marks, they then added oil restarted and major noise shut back down, what ever was laying in the pan was now pushed through to the oil filter and plugged it solid.... panic set in....mother Cat was called.

 

[Tones]

. I don't believe that the engine would run more than a minute or two with no oil, even if it had been running synthetic and Lucas. JMO.

Mate, it's surprising just how long an engine will run without oil. Many moons ago I was operating an excavator when the sump got smashed. It couldn't be repaired were it was so I had to climb it out from were it was and park it in a better location. It took about 15 minutes at idle. After the repair that machine went on to many thousands of trouble free hours on 30 grade mineral oil.

 

[Shimmy1]

As far as I'm concerned, the only thing Cat makes that is any good any more is
a tractor. The last good loader was the F. I think that in order to stay competitive, that quality has gone out the window

Tractors aren't even as good as they once were, and the really good ones were done away with after the Challenger name was sold to AGCO.

 

[Shimmy1]

Mate, it's surprising just how long an engine will run without oil. Many moons ago I was operating an excavator when the sump got smashed. It couldn't be repaired were it was so I had to climb it out from were it was and park it in a better location. It took about 15 minutes at idle. After the repair that machine went on to many thousands of trouble free hours on 30 grade mineral oil.

Interesting comment. Maybe the idle situation helped? All I have for a testimonial is some 20 odd years ago, my dad was driving our 1978 IH with a DT466 home, and the oil plug fell out. Judging from where the slick started to where he coasted to a stop on the shoulder, the engine ran for maybe a minute before locking up tight. I'm not disputing your story, actually kind of wish that truck engine would have fared as well as your excavator. That was a $10,000 bill back in 1993 that we really didn't need at the time.

 

[cuttin edge]

Tractors aren't even as good as they once were, and the really good ones were done away with after the Challenger name was sold to AGCO.

Sorry, when I say tractor around here it means a bull dozer. But I do agree about AGCO.

 

[John C.]

I've seen maybe one or two engines run completely out of oil and there are usually tell signs. First sign is the farthest main bearing or rod bearing from the oil pump is usually what locks up. Second item is the piston coolers quick squirting on the bottom of the farthest piston and it seizes in the cylinder. You can't hide new oil in a locked up engine so that is a pretty obvious sign that the bill will go to the customer with our sincerest sympathies.

The real issue though for the customer is where did that oil go to. I know you are supposed to check oil before each shift but an engine properly maintained is not supposed to use a lot of oil between oil changes. The amount of oil leak will used to show up on the ground or may in the stack. Today if it is going up the stack you are seeing regen happening way too often. So if it isn't on the ground and not up the stack, who is really responsible for the bill? Even if it transferred into the transmission or hydraulic system that would usually fit into a drive train warranty. I would say the root cause of the problem has not been identified yet and there is more negotiating due on the repair costs. Does the machine have product link?

 

[Fatgraderman]

I would say the block is a reman, what I think happened was the pm was done on the grader late Friday afternoon by our mobile mech he was called away on a emergency call out before finishing the pm but failed to tag out the machine before leaving, that same week the operater for that machine was on vacation he came in the following Monday pulled the dipstick in the machine when finishing up his pre trip and seen the old oil leftover that was drained on the safe operating marks on the stick and thought every thing was fine he didn't wipe and recheck, he did not see any tag out card on the machine and thought every thing was good to go, low and behold we lost a engine, both the operator and the mobile mech aren't saying much, this is why following pre trip procedures to the letter for your machine is so important. any opinions on this issued are welcomed thanks

Didn't you say the filter was full of metal? Wouldn't it take some oil to get the metal there?

 

[Fatgraderman]

We had one where the piston oiler got plugged and the blowby got real bad in a hurry. Something I have seen was the o-ring not copacetic on the oil filter, and when the engine ran, a waterfall of oil pumped out (on the backside of the filter to boot) without getting a drop on the engine or filter, but of course the evidence was all over the ground.

 

[old-iron-habit]

Didn't you say the filter was full of metal? Wouldn't it take some oil to get the metal there?

They added oil and started it up and shut it back down when the noises got real bad. Post 23.

 

[Fatgraderman]

They added oil and started it up and shut it back down when the noises got real bad. Post 23.

Thanks- guess I missed that one.

 

[20/80]

Here is the thing that bothers me about it all, we payed very close to 400 grand for this machine with all this computer technology and software built into these machines when you turn on the key and it under goes its detection cycle before you start the machine with all this so advanced tech the computer should of never let the machine start NEVER!, lights and buzzers should have been going off, back in the day we had a sentinel device that detected low oil pressure and cut the fuel so the engine would not start, my god even atv's have a shut of in them when low oil is detected to save the engine, when you pay for a advanced machine you should not be settling for less, Cat should have had this fail safe shut off built into the software to protect the engine, if nothing else put a sentinel on the engine, if this technology is built into the software then it failed and Cat is not coming good on its commitment, this is why a sentinel device was invented because of human error and Cat technology should also have it built in because humans run their equipment they build and sell, your opinions on this issue are welcomed thanks

 

[John C.]

The manufactures don't put shutdowns on engines to protect humans. Sentinels have the possibility of shutting down an engine with a human in a precarious place. The decision to shut down an engine for whatever reason is always in the operator's hands. There are indicators and alarms in machines to alert operators of the current status. One would assume the human running the machine has the proper training and the physical ability to operate the machine safely.

Turn your argument around the other way and assume the operator is running down the road at forty miles an hour and the engine suddenly shuts down from a loss of oil pressure. Now you have twenty to thirty tons of dead steel careening through what ever traffic or pedestrians that have the misfortune to be in the way. Now the manufacturer is responsible for that unfortunate accident.

 

[20/80]

The manufactures don't put shutdowns on engines to protect humans. Sentinels have the possibility of shutting down an engine with a human in a precarious place. The decision to shut down an engine for whatever reason is always in the operator's hands. There are indicators and alarms in machines to alert operators of the current status. One would assume the human running the machine has the proper training and the physical ability to operate the machine safely.

Turn your argument around the other way and assume the operator is running down the road at forty miles an hour and the engine suddenly shuts down from a loss of oil pressure. Now you have twenty to thirty tons of dead steel careening through what ever traffic or pedestrians that have the misfortune to be in the way. Now the manufacturer is responsible for that unfortunate accident.

I see you point but my argument is on start up if there is not sufficient oil pressure the alarms go off and engine shuts down to protect the engine from damage before moving the machine,(engine monitoring system) this is the safe guard Cat should have in place, manufactures have many safe guards in place in their machines to protect humans (seatbelts, back up beepers, signal lights, brake lights, buzzers and alarms, ergonomics, back up electric brake, just to name a few) but nothing in place to protect the heart of the machine the engine. thanks for opinion.

 

[John C.]

You are free to add a Murphy system at your own expense. I've looked a plenty of machines that have them. Don't expect to ever see a manufacturer do it though.

Also keep in mind that the functions you have listed were mandated by government.

 

[20/80]

You are free to add a Murphy system at your own expense. I've looked a plenty of machines that have them. Don't expect to ever see a manufacturer do it though.

Also keep in mind that the functions you have listed were mandated by government.

I agree, in you last post you mentioned machine shutting down running down the road, Cat has a back up electric brake in the m series for that very scenario, you have 10 seconds to pullover and stop before that safe guard electric brake burns up, $5000 to replace after using it, if this back up failed and did not come on and you ran over somebody Cat would be liable, especially if there was no code prior indicating it was not functioning properly. thanks

 

[Fatgraderman]

The Volvo 940B I ran had an oil level indicator on the screen at startup. The way it was calibrated though, it showed it was ready to add while the oil was half way on the dipstick. Not a big deal, I ended up topping up more frequent. That machine was satellite tracked, so I didn't want to give somebody an out if there were any issues. This new stuff doesn't even have a oil pressure gauge. My pickup is the worst- there's a gauge in the cluster but it's just showing an algorithm programmed into the ECM.

 

[kshansen]

This new stuff doesn't even have a oil pressure gauge. My pickup is the worst- there's a gauge in the cluster but it's just showing an algorithm programmed into the ECM.

I'm not sure if it was Ford or maybe more than one manufacture that when you ordered a vehicle with "full set of gauges" the oil pressure "sender" was actually the same switch as used with the "idiot light" system. So if you had any oil pressure it read about 1/2 way up the gauge. It made no difference if it was one psi above the point the "idiot light" would come on for or if you had a jammed up relief valve that was going to rupture the oil filter any second, it always read right in the center!


As for the shut down systems back in say the 1970-80's we did install some of them on our quarry equipment. The one's we used had all kinds of different options available to control how they functioned. As I recall for any mobile equipment we set them up to ring a bell when there was a problem, low oil pressure, over heating and so on. On stationary equipment like a water pump, genset or drill rig those went to the shut down mode with an over ride option as needed.

 

[John C.]

Liabilities are never cut and dried and almost always determined in a court of law. In the scenario presented the burden of proof unfortunately is on the owner and operator of the machine. The manufacturer will guarantee the systems worked when the machine left the factory and will further cover any warranty charges to fix those systems if found defective in workmanship or materials within the prescribed time period or hours of operation. The warranty papers specifically exclude all incidental damages to the machine, other property or bodily harm due to unsafe operation or improper maintenance. Running a machine when the alarm systems don't work is deemed unsafe operation and again the burden of proof is on the owner / operator of the machine to prove they didn't know the systems were inoperative and that there was no way for that fact to be known before the incident.

The only argument that has a chance of working comes down to inherent defect which means something that can't be seen inside the machine will cause it to fail without warning. Inherent defect is almost always a design issue which can be the kiss of death for future machine sales. So if you lost oil pressure and the alarm never sounded I would suggest you apply a pressure test to the sender and read the gauge with some independent third party observing the results. Now you have some leverage in your claim against the manufacturer.