Line Boring Systems

[Nige]

I agree. Line boring is a premium skill that not every machine shop is capable of doing, let alone doing it out in the field. It should be priced accordingly. If you have a service that no-one else has you can literally charge what you like because one way or another the customers are going to have to pay it.

To give you an example of that until we got our own machine on site we used to pay the only company with the capability (in our area that is) $30k for building up and line boring the loader frame & B Pin bores on a large wheel loader. That was 6 bores about 8" diameter and approximately 36" total length (2 x 12" long, 4 x 6" long) for the 6 bores. It was a case of we had no alternative......

 

[BuMach]

Im having the same point off vieuw as Raf,
I think the cost and risks and also the specialty is to high to keep the same rate.
You gotta do some math of course to know your breakeven point.
But if you do a big job, the equipment could pay its self in 1-2 jobs.

I always say, Pay peanuts, get monkeys!
Quality jobs have a certain pricetag.

 

[ETER]

I am in agreement with on all points, but would add that the "sweet spot" for billing with vary depending on location and customer base:drinkup
Regards, Bob

 

[BuMach]

Indeed.

 

[StanRUS]

Shear Sheep short, but do not cut the skin!

 

[Williams Marine]

Cheap labor isn't skilled. Skilled labor isn't cheap.

 

[StanRUS]

Cheap labor isn't skilled. Skilled labor isn't cheap.

Cheaper labor, i.e. apprentice programs are prerequisite to achieve 8,000hrs hand on experience to receive your ticket; Department of Labor CARD as journeyman with SKILLS...You could not be hired on as a inside or outside machinist by any of the trades associated with Shipbuilding or Repairs in the US & most other countries.

My question, are you planning to practice on your dime for 50-100-150hours with your new boring system? Sounds like you're excepting paying customers to foot your training tab!!!!!

 

[digger doug]

My question, are you planning to practice on your dime for 50-100-150hours with your new boring system? Sounds like you're excepting paying customers to foot your training tab!!!!!

Egg-Zachary !

At first job, you will be very slow, in-efficient, not having it all thought out, dis-organized, etc.
That first job (and the next couple) should not be priced time & materials, rather firm price.

Yes you will be losing some money, but no customer will allow you to learn on his dime.

 

[Nige]

Egg-Zachary !

At first job, you will be very slow, in-efficient, not having it all thought out, dis-organized, etc.
That first job (and the next couple) should not be priced time & materials, rather firm price.

Yes you will be losing some money, but no customer will allow you to learn on his dime.

I would go further and suggest that on the first few jobs while you work the bugs out be prepared to invoice the customer at an hourly rate but billing somewhat less hours than you actually spend doing the job to account for the lost time. Once you're up to speed that falls away.

 

[digger doug]

I would go further and suggest that on the first few jobs while you work the bugs out be prepared to invoice the customer at an hourly rate but billing somewhat less hours than you actually spend doing the job to account for the lost time. Once you're up to speed that falls away.

I'm thinking that before the job starts, you quote the job based on a standard price, hours not withstanding.

 

[Williams Marine]

Was going to spend time in my shop honing my skills, first jobs bill according.

Oh Stan FYI, 4 year degree followed by 4 year Union apprenticeship then followed by 28 years in the real world working prior to going out on my own.

 

[digger doug]

Yes, do a "practice job" first.... you'll end up forgetting a tool, wrench etc. it's inevitable, to make mistakes at first.

Keep notes, you'll start buying tools just for the machine (extra allen wrenches, box wrenches
etc.) and have them in a job box.

Maybe even a couple of good 100' extension cords, a magnetic portable light to light up the area,
measuring tools, a extra mag base a and 1" dial indicator for moving things precisely.

Minimize "running back to the shop" and you'll get this down pat quickly.

 

[Williams Marine]

Thanks good information, appreciate your input.

 

[Topley Mike]

If we all only did jobs we knew exactly how to do we would never go forwards.

 

[StanRUS]

Line Boring Systems & Borewelders

Was going to spend time in my shop honing my skills, first jobs bill according.

Oh Stan FYI, 4 year degree followed by 4 year Union apprenticeship then followed by 28 years in the real world working prior to going out on my own.

Practice honing your skills, okay. Standardize your’ test practice procedure so you’ll always test in an identical sequence using the same type of steel, same brinell hardness number, same tool bit geometry etc...Purchase 2” thick X 24” X 24” mild steel plate (C1018, 1026 brinell hardness #100-150)…Set L/D (bar length to diameter support bearing distance) @ 10X (example 2.0” dia bar = 20” support bearing spread distance). Set DOC (depth of cut) @ 0.125” per side (0.250” per bore diameter)...SFM @ 280-350 (for carbide)...IPR (inches per revolution) @ 0.005”
Locate center on steel test plate, torch cut 2.5” diameter hole, install end of bar driver-feeder & attempt to machine the bore observing the chipping action; swarf turning blue-ish-blue black with chips forming 6s or 9s...if the chips are long-stingy then you’ll either increase feed rate to break chips or use a cutting bit (ground with diamond wheel or inserts) with chip breaker.

Backing off SFM and feedrate-IPR can cause BUE (built up edge = dulling-wearing of the cutting edges) and can cause ‘work hardening’ of the material your machining.
Find out what Yorkie will machine; ask Yorkie to due production cut and the 2 bar carriage guide bars will twist causing chatter, vibration and be difficult to achieve an adequate surface finish...easy to test using torque wrench & locking out the driver-feeder assembly!!!!! Or simply read the available information on York's website or listen to the sales people's honest answers, when asked specific questions.
Practice welding the bores & machining to size; you can then bid jobs with a basic know-how of how long (hours) it will take. Most customers want a quoted bid, how much will the job cost!!!!

 

[digger doug]

If we all only did jobs we knew exactly how to do we would never go forwards.

So your gonna show up at a shop, with no pre preparations ?

Wing it ?

At what hourly rate do you get for "winging it" ?

 

[Williams Marine]

StanRus, thanks for the suggestions / input.
It was suggested to me also to use schedule 80 pipe of various diameters and lengths, weld them onto a base and practice on them. I have also found a couple excavator buckets in a scape yard, may get one and rebuild it to include line boring.
All great information posted, keeps one thinking and looking at it from more then one perspective, which was the reason I started this thread. Would enjoy sitting around the shop with all of you sipping our beverage of choice and getting into a in depth discussion on line boring and much more.
I think the young guys who want nothing to do with the trades are missing the point, they are missing the Zen and Art of it.
I highly recommend reading if you haven't yet
Shop Class As Soulcraft. An inquiry into the value of work. By Matthew B. Crawford

 

[Nige]

Would enjoy sitting around the shop with all of you sipping our beverage of choice and getting into a in depth discussion on line boring and much more.

Get some PG in and I'll happily join you ...... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7AO6DHx27c&list=PLKDLD7zS1AchSPInfQuIl1vZCgwerYeY6&index=3

 

[Williams Marine]

Can the monkey join us?

 

[Nige]

Can the monkey join us?

Most certainly ........