D10T - 777F - D8T Cam failures

[Check Break]

I wonder if the trucking industry is having the same problem? Lots of C-15's out there on the road.

The C-15-s experienced similar roller surface failures around 300-350K miles.

 

[OzDozer]

The zinc additives in oil are known as zinc di-alkyl-di-thiophosphates (ZDDPS). These are synthetic long-chain polymers used as oil performance improvers.
ZDDP is primarily used to reduce wear in areas such as camshaft lobes, flat tappets and lifters which undergo very high boundary layer pressures and/or shear forces at their contact faces.


The other uses of ZDDPS additives is for antioxidants and corrosion inhibitors. These are vital additives in modern engines, necessary to prevent early or catastrophic wear in the above-mentioned areas of high-stress metal-to-metal contact.
The amount of ZDDPS is being reduced in recent API oil grade classifications, that relate to low-emission engines using catalytic converters and other emission-control devices. The destruction of ZDDPS as a result of combustion by-product breakdown - and engine heat - results in zinc and phosphorous deposits that can damage catalytic converters and other emission control devices.
Roller cam followers were supposed to reduce the need for high levels of ZDDPS.

In addition - all low-emission engines use modified combustion technologies and relocated ring placement positions, that ensures that pollutants created by combustion are retained in the engine, rather than sent out the exhaust.
These retained pollutants (largely, soot) are sent down past the rings to be retained in the oil. Thus, low-emission engines need a very high-detergent-content oil, to be able to cope with the increased pollutant content in the oil.

Accordingly, you are well advised to keep strictly to manufacturers oil recommendations and oil change periods - and to also monitor soot and pollutants in the oil, if you want to reach optimum engine life.

 

[Nige]

I just re-read the OP and did some checks on in our records. We have NEVER had low-hours failures of the cam follower rollers or cams on our engines. We had 2 failures. First was one valve on a C-18 in an 834H at around 7000 hours. Needed a cam & we replaced all 3 followers on that cylinder. The second was literally every lobe in the camshaft in a C-18 in a D9T at 11,000 hours. Oil analysis reports showed nothing to predict either failure. We are extremely careful about doing valve adjustments at the correct times, specially the first one. I'll try to find some photos and post them.

However as I think I posted before it seems on some models of C-series model engines if you go past a certain point in terms of hours the wear elements in the oil analysis skyrocket from "normal" to "do something fast" in the space of maybe just 20-30 operating hours. We put it down to the high-sulphur diesel fuel we use here. That's why we cut the maintenance interval down from the 500 hours recommended in the manufacturer's service manual to 250.

 

[Showpony]

anyone checking their valve springs?

 

[Scrub Puller]

Yair . . . Ozdozer Spot on comment here.

These retained pollutants (largely, soot) are sent down past the rings to be retained in the oil.

Coming from a culture where every thing got 250 hour oil changes if it needed it or not it was quite a reality check when I bought my first Japanese pre-combustion chamber diesel ute . . . 5000 thousand kilometer oil changes . . . like I mean like that's just fifty hours on the highway!!

I did some oil sampling and if you exceeded that (especialy in cold weather) it seemed you were taking a risk.

I have seen photo's of gelled sooted up oil in a tojo sump at zeroC at Mitchell.

Things are a bit better now with direct injection.

Cheers.

 

[OzDozer]

Scrub Puller - The older little Jap diesels are buggers for over-fuelling because the rack is controlled by an aneroid. Out on the highway, pedal to the metal means the inlet vacuum dropped and the aneroid opened the rack right up - whether the engine could use the fuel or not. As a result, following an older Jap diesel pedalling along the highway with someone flooring it, means you see a continuous stream of black smoke, and the back of the vehicle getting coated in soot. In this case, the soot is building up rapidly in the crankcase oil, too - and you'll notice the oil in these motors gets soot-black very quickly. Fortunately better injection controls on later diesels has largely eliminated this problem. However, today I was very surprised when a near-new Mercedes 4WD roared out in front of me, from a side street, and left a trail of black smoke like an old Mack. I've never seen that before, and I wondered if the Merc had some serious injection problems developing.

 

[oldtom]

all the new c.ser eat cams crack heads now this is in coal ,qld aust ,at work the yellow shop we have a yard full of dead one 10 40ft container to go back to CAT so its all over

 

[DBarnett]

I know it's been a while since this thread started, but as I'm new to the forum, and have had similar issues with D10T's (High soot, High Iron ) thought I would share - we have chased this around with the Cat dealer for just over 9 months & pretty much came to the conclusion that high idle (gets very hot here, so engines left running for AC) & extended intervals is a contributing factor, since then we have looked at all sorts of things, from onboard kidney looping, centrifugal filters, slightly hotter thermostats, and even a way to run Air Cons on an auxilary battery powered motor whilst main engine is off.
Just heard last week that there are improvements coming for these engines - new Pistons (with a change to top ring land position - sound familiar to you experianced Cat guys?) check on SIS media search for SEBD9830,although it currently doesn't include the D10T or 777F, have been told that a similar improvement is coming for them, along with a new Camshaft and a higher pressure oil pump - currently have questions in at the dealer to explain what the changes are and why they have been made ? Happy to share this with interested parties within the group
Cheers
DB

 

[Nige]

Yes please - our climate conditions are very similar to your although we have not seen the level of problems you apparently have.
Are you changing oil @ 250 hours and what do you consider as high soot/high iron in a 250-hour oil sample..?
What's your fuel sulphur %..? Ours is high sulphur fuel so around 0.15%.

I'm looking at the last 10 samples from my D10T with the highest engine hours (16000+) and if we change oil @ 250 hours on the nail we see iron in the range of 20-30 and soot between 15-30%. Let them go much past that and it looks like the oil analysis fell off a cliff. We have discovered to our cost that you CANNOT let the oil go past 300 hours in our conditions (climate + high sulphur fuel).
My previous experience at high altitudes it was not unusual to see soot in the 120-140% range, numbers as low as 30 frighten me TBH. I'm always thinking they should be higher - I've had to re-tune my brain...!!

I've read SEBD9830. Interesting article. I would not be at all surprised if the new design piston makes its way into the complete C-Series engine range.

 

[crazycajun]

Just had the same problem at 4800 hrs on a 336d. Thought it was an injector, nope cam wouldn't move the lifter

 

[DBarnett]

Nige, we aren't actually having failure, just trying to "pre-empt", as you know, the elevated soot and iron will reduce overall engine life, our levels sit around the fe=40 to 60, and ST 30 to 50, oil change intervals can range from 225 to 275, and we do see a spike up when we go over that, our fuel sulpher content is only 10ppm, so low sulpher fuel.
Our older machines that are still on first engines 13 to 14,000hrs (3 of) show around the same levels as you have quoted for yours, it is the newer machines (10 of) with from 2 to 7,000hrs, and our older machines (2 of) once they have an engine change out & although the Cat dealer tells us there has been no significant change to the engines, the trend analysis points to something different about them.
Will let you all know what info I get back from Cat on the changes coming

Cheers
DB

 

[Nige]

Do you have idea idea what Part Number of software flash file your engines are running..? Since the flash file that was installed originally in our first tractors (2008 vintage) there have been no less than 6 changes up to the current Part Number, and 5 changes for our 2nd batch of tractors that were delivered in early 2010. I'm wondering if Cat have sneaked a fuel injection re-map in one of those updates somewhere. We have a brand new D10T delivered last month which doesn't have the latest flash file installed but it's onlt one step away. I'll keep an eye on that and report back - too early to tell yet. We also have a D10T on overhaul right now, I'll keep an eye on that one when it goes back up.

Our climate is hot & humid like yours, hot enough that a failed a/c is enough reason to down a machine. Many times when we see our kit parked up we joke about them being mobile aircon units. I can't think why you're seeing such a difference in iron & soot to what we are, especially if you are using low sulphur fuel. Although maybe the fuel IS the cause - take away the lubricating properties of the sulphur and the possibility exists that wear would increase.

 

[DBarnett]

Check out Cat media SEPD1570 - Improved Camshaft 21/02/2013, and SEPD1564 -Improved rocker arm assembly, no word back yet on the piston changes.

 

[scoops25]

Do you have idea idea what Part Number of software flash file your engines are running..? Since the flash file that was installed originally in our first tractors (2008 vintage) there have been no less than 6 changes up to the current Part Number, and 5 changes for our 2nd batch of tractors that were delivered in early 2010. I'm wondering if Cat have sneaked a fuel injection re-map in one of those updates somewhere. We have a brand new D10T delivered last month which doesn't have the latest flash file installed but it's onlt one step away. I'll keep an eye on that and report back - too early to tell yet. We also have a D10T on overhaul right now, I'll keep an eye on that one when it goes back up.

Our climate is hot & humid like yours, hot enough that a failed a/c is enough reason to down a machine. Many times when we see our kit parked up we joke about them being mobile aircon units. I can't think why you're seeing such a difference in iron & soot to what we are, especially if you are using low sulphur fuel. Although maybe the fuel IS the cause - take away the lubricating properties of the sulphur and the possibility exists that wear would increase.

How do you go about knowing the flash file you have installed and what the updated Flash Files are.

 

[Nige]

Caterpillar ET will allow you to look at the various ECMs on a machine and will indicate the part # of installed software. For updated files it would need a machine or engine serial # posted here. They're in a Cat system but not one that most users have access to.

 

[Per Eriksson]

As to what flash file is currently installed the only way to be sure is to check, either with ET or depending on machine it can be pulled up on control panels or monitors.

Latest files can be found on SISweb.

 

[Nige]

Caterpillar ET will allow you to look at the various ECMs on a machine and will indicate the part # of installed software. For updated files it would need a machine or engine serial # posted here. They're in a Cat system but not one that most users have access to.

Sorry, I need to clarify. As Per says the latest file is generally (though not always) shown on SIS-WEB. What's missing though is the progression from "what you have" to "latest available". That's often an interesting read ...........

 

[Per Eriksson]

Looking in TMI shows that doesn't it? Seldom with any explanation of what is changed and why, that most likely takes alot of reading service letters, magazines and bulletins and poking the right people at CAT until they talk......

 

[Gavin84w]

Yeah, check the recent SMAG with all the iterations of software on M series graders, crikey i had to go have a good lie down after the first page!!

 

[scoops25]

Just had 5th Cam failure in 7000hrs on our D10T. Hope these updated cams and higher oil pressure works. Can't afford anymore.