JCB Skid Steer

[KSSS]

Dave, the term ROBOT is the name that JCB gave to their skid steers years ago. DigDeep did not coin that. JCB is not going to build a name off of skid steers, especially now. The time to build a name was when the market was selling 100K skid steers a year. Last numbers I saw the market is around 20K. Spread over a lot of players. JCB has the most market penatration in NA with their backhoe. The skid steer market is tough, ask Komatsu, the number 2 OEM in the world in sales and they backed out of it. It will take at least a generation for JCB to be a player in NA (in any capacity) if they get aggressive now. Like I have said before, the vast marjority of operators and owners do not value the inherent safety of JCB skid steer. The fact that since intro (we will excluded the recent release) they have been poor choice (problematic, zero resale, high priced parts, zero support for most of NA and so on) is why they are less than 1%.

 

[Cobra-R]

ah you see im coming from the ag market. there is nobody i know who knew who jcb was before we got the skid steer around.. they would come to the farm, look at the skid loader and say, "this thing is sweet," then they would say, "who the hell is jcb?" so in 2011 jcb had "1%" of the skid steer market... well i say thats pretty good since the new generation was released in 2010ish. the new machines are hardly a robot. as was stated before, vertical lift counts for "70%" of the skid steer market, so jcb was eliminating 70% of their sales before they even started. bobcat made their name from only skid loaders, so why cant jcb. even if jcb tried building a dealer network, you almost cant compete with a brand like bobcat who has a dealer on every street corner... either way, if you would look at market share where there is a local jcb dealer, you would find it to be much higher than 1%.

Dave,

That is exactly the reaction I am getting from Customers.......they cannot believe someone has not thought of something so logical before this. Year to date, I am at 9 JCB skid loaders to each New Holland (and there have never been any dealers here). I get emails daily from dealers wanting to transfer machines for retails.....we need more inventory.

The Market share numbers I have for JCB is 3%+ for 2012 (prettymuch the same as companies like Mustang, Gehl, ect)

I never delt with the "robot" 1st generation (pre 2011) machines, but from what I have seen, they looked to be built to european ways.....and very crude. I could be wrong, but they don't look very apealing to me.

 

[JCBiron]

the vast marjority of operators and owners do not value the inherent safety of JCB skid steer.

Agreed

The fact that since intro (we will excluded the recent release) they have been poor choice (problematic, zero resale, high priced parts, zero support for most of NA and so on) is why they are less than 1%.

Also agreed (excluding the new gen machines, as you noted).

Guys, we can argue about how great/terrible the new JCB skid steers/ctl's are until the Internet implodes into a cloud of dust and the world is overtaken by aliens (sorry, just watched the movie "Battleship" last night....I don't really recommend it, however, i DO recommend Brooklyn Decker in a white tank top)....but the truth of the matter is that for years, JCB made a sub-standard product, and did not have a properly focused dealer network (while it is true that JCB has been in the states for years, they did not truly get at-all serious about selling machines here until the 90's, which it then took another almost-10-years to build a factory).

I think what is so hard for guys like KSSS and Digdeep to believe (especially from someone like me, who obviously has a vested interest in the brand), is that the new machines are really that good, considering what they know about the old machines. The two are so completely different, it is either a testament to how good the new ones are, or how bad the old ones were.....take your pick.

I do, however, disagree with the fact that they cannot make a name for themselves with this new machine. We are seeing it firsthand. Guys who normally wouldn't give JCB the time of day are inquiring and asking for demos. I don't think I have ever sold a product (JCB especially), where I have had as high of success rate to close the deal after a demo. Again, I'm just some guy on the other end of your computer screen, so why on God's Green Earth would you believe what I say....I do, however, think that over the next 3-5 years you will see JCB take away some of the SSL/CTL market share from the "bottom feeders"; i.e. Case, Tak, Gehl, et al.

As mentioned, Bobcat is the trend-setter, which is why JCB's parts pricing was benchmarked and compared to them prior to launch. We have seen that our SSL/CTL prices are right in line with everyone else when looked at as a whole.

Ok, Rant over....bring on Brooklyn....

 

[JCBiron]

but the simple fact is that the one armed JCB skid steer (radial or vertical, it doesn't matter) has not captured the US customers' heart the same way it has yours over the 18 years it has been on our shores.

Also thought I would comment on this.....you are correct in your statement, the problem was that with the old machines, that was one of the ONLY features we could sell

Cabs: Sucked.....too small, terrible fit and finish, didn't tilt, no factory a/c
Engine access: Not terrible, not great.....
Engine: Perkins....can't hold the jock of the JCB Dieselmax/Ecomax engine
Undercarriage: Too short
Vertical Lift: Non-existent
2 Speed on Track Units: Nope
Parts sourcing/pricing: Machine designed and built in the UK, where they sell virtually ZERO skid steers compared to US....pricing high
Compete with a T300: Nope, ROC only up to 2450....sorry

But HEY! We have a single boom side-entry that affords class-leading safety and visibility.

See how hard that is.....that is the difference now. We have the rest of the machine to go with the single boom design. Whereas before, a customer had to want that one specific option and possibly overlook all the other short-comings, we now can offer, in most cases, class-leading performance and features, and oh, by the way, you can also avoid crawling thru your tree spade or over/around your load guard on your pallet forks and also see everything around you.

This is a much better proposition. Now, the single boom side-entry has become icing on the cake for a lot of guys (to go along with the rest of the machine).

whew.....ok, Brooklyn, seriously, if you're reading this....NOW I'm ready

 

[Digdeep]

Also thought I would comment on this.....you are correct in your statement, the problem was that with the old machines, that was one of the ONLY features we could sell

Cabs: Sucked.....too small, terrible fit and finish, didn't tilt, no factory a/c
Engine access: Not terrible, not great.....
Engine: Perkins....can't hold the jock of the JCB Dieselmax/Ecomax engine
Undercarriage: Too short
Vertical Lift: Non-existent
2 Speed on Track Units: Nope
Parts sourcing/pricing: Machine designed and built in the UK, where they sell virtually ZERO skid steers compared to US....pricing high
Compete with a T300: Nope, ROC only up to 2450....sorry

But HEY! We have a single boom side-entry that affords class-leading safety and visibility.

See how hard that is.....that is the difference now. We have the rest of the machine to go with the single boom design. Whereas before, a customer had to want that one specific option and possibly overlook all the other short-comings, we now can offer, in most cases, class-leading performance and features, and oh, by the way, you can also avoid crawling thru your tree spade or over/around your load guard on your pallet forks and also see everything around you.

This is a much better proposition. Now, the single boom side-entry has become icing on the cake for a lot of guys (to go along with the rest of the machine).

whew.....ok, Brooklyn, seriously, if you're reading this....NOW I'm ready

JCBiron...all good points. As I stated earlier, I don't think that the current JCB units are bad machines. I merely think that the issue is a "perception" and a "distribution (dealer network)" problem/challenge. Market share will be a big struggle until these two hurdles get jumped. It may very well happen, and competition is good for all of us that own machines because it makes all OEMs strive for better products. I personally have nothing against the product or brand.

A prime example of the JCB's brand perception and distribution challenge in the United States is their backhoe. It is the clear global market share leader with about 40% at the end of 2011, yet it only had a 1.3% market share in the US. It has no legacy of being a poor product in the US like the Robot does yet it continues to struggle for market share approaching anything like it enjoys around the rest of the world. The only thing I can pinpoint as holding it back is brand strength and distribution...both a function of a strong dealer network. It is possbile that they are on the right track, and if so, it will be good for all customers.

I'm with you on your Brooklyn Decker observations!!!!:notworthy

 

[dave esterns]

i suppose i will make a quick reply... i have always been aware of jcb and respected their equipment just because of how innovative it was. like the fastrac farm tractors. the main problem is that their fastracs were never tailored to the us market. they tried to rework them recently and did a good job, but you still cant really traditionally row crop them, which eliminates most of their us market.

i will never know what motivates jcb to keep growing. the us is just one country out of hundreds, and since jcb is a privately owned company, the Bamford boys are obviously rolling around in more cash than they could ever know what do do with... so really to them, i can see why they might not care much about penetrating the us market.

that being said, the jcb skid steer is a machine that i could simply not resist. at that time i didnt really wanna buy a jcb because we have had so much luck with bobcat, and faced many unknowns about jcb, but i ran across the machine on the internet and instantly thought, i NEED one of these... so we called the local jcb dealer, (at the time they didn't know hardly anything about the new machines; they prolly had sold about 2 robots in the past few years) and told them we want one of these machines as soon as you can get one. so a year and a half later they called and we ordered one without ever seeing one.

really the biggest thing that sold me on the jcb was the SAWEEET cab. it quiet (you cant even compare it to a regular skid steer), easy to clean, has no foam interior to fall apart, doesnt rattle, visibility like you wouldnt believe, sweet joysticks, etc. the side entry was just what was said earlier icing on the cake. i could make an endless list of good things about the jcb...

that being said, after dealing with jcb and the local dealer, the service and support is just about the only thing that would make me buy a new jcb say endloader. if i was in the market for a new end loader, it would still be hard to buy a jcb, becuase there are no ridiculous advantages of owning the jcb, so for resale reasons, one would definitely consider a cat or deer. but i do like the coffee maker they put in some of the jcb equipment!! on the other hand, if i was looking for a telescopic handler, i would tend to lean towards the jcb for various reasons.

so i guess im saying jcb really outdid themselves on the skid loader (naturally), its about the only way i can see for them to make a name for themselves. its a machine people, like me, will simply be forced to buy because they wont see where there is any other option; and then once a customer buys a skid steer, if the service and support is as good as it has been (for me) maybe they will come back to buy larger equipment.

on the other hand, if i was buying a new farm tractor, if i had excessive cash, the fastrac is also irresistible. you really cant compare it to a regular tractor. i dont know if its jcbs plan across the board to have exclusively irresistable machines, but its a good idea... but at the same time, lots of ppl are scared of things that are different so maybe in the end its hurting them

 

[dave esterns]

i would have to disagree that jcb is going to be taking business from the "bottom feeders." wait till kss hears you said that about case! they will take business from people who are looking for the best. aka all the big names. people, around here, who buy gehl/mustang, which is A LOT of ppl are just farmers who only care about rugged and reliable, and cuz thats what they been runnin since the owatonna days... jcb i think is getting a lot of sales from dealers who carry 2 brands of skid steers. people come in to buy a new holland, and leave with a jcb .

that being said, jcb eliminated most of their farm customers by no longer offering hand foot controls which they actually did offer in the first few month of production of the new models.

 

[JCBiron]

i would have to disagree that jcb is going to be taking business from the "bottom feeders."

Dave, I suppose I should have clarified that statement a bit.....ultimately, BC, Cat, and Deere will remain the top three market leaders for the forseeable future (with NH in 4th). What I meant by "bottom feeders" is that I think you will see JCB creep up among those players while the "big three" battle it out at the top. Who knows....maybe 10 years from now they'll all be chasing JCB!!! (....that should get a rise of out some of you!)

 

[Colorado Digger]

I don't know what I would do, faced with the decision of a New Holland or JCB??:crying


people come in to buy a new holland, and leave with a jcb .

 

[KSSS]

Dave, I suppose I should have clarified that statement a bit.....ultimately, BC, Cat, and Deere will remain the top three market leaders for the forseeable future (with NH in 4th). What I meant by "bottom feeders" is that I think you will see JCB creep up among those players while the "big three" battle it out at the top. Who knows....maybe 10 years from now they'll all be chasing JCB!!! (....that should get a rise of out some of you!)

Thank you for the clarification since I was crafting a response geared toward the bottom feeder response. Last numbers I saw was CASE itself at 13 percent marketshare, I have no idea what NH brings and Deere was the same.

DigDeep said it very well. I dont have anything against JCB and I never have. While I am a CASE customer I feel that I am fair in my comments. Apparently other OEMs agree since I am leaving to go overseas for a week (leave next Monday) to provide opinions and feedback on a new product (and its not for CASE). JCB issues in NA are well beyond the product, but with the skid steer line they are fighting a poor history. Perhaps JCB will become known for a quality skid steer, but that will be repairing only one of numerous missing pieces in the puzzle that is JCB America. I don't disbelieve what you say JCBiron, I think there are some cool features of a JCB skid steer that you cant get anywhere else. I could see where farmers could come to appreciate the side door access. Heck I see advantages to it everytime I want to put something in the bucket our take something out and have to elevate the loader arms and cant open the door. So I am sure there are some guys that are signing up for one, but now the machine and the dealer has to deliver, hopefully it does. Meaning you as a CASE dealership have to be stable with the JCB franchise, huge problem for JCB dealerships I have seen. Arnold Machinery used to carry JCB in the West, they sold some backhoes, and even a few skid steers in the area. The dealership was dropped when Volvo came into play, and that resulted in a lot of unhappy JCB owners. There has historically been, at least out West, very little dealer stability with the JCB brand and I think that has been their problem nationwide.

 

[JCBiron]

Last numbers I saw was CASE itself at 13 percent marketshare, I have no idea what NH brings and Deere was the same........but now the machine and the dealer has to deliver, hopefully it does. Meaning you as a CASE dealership have to be stable with the JCB franchise, huge problem for JCB dealerships I have seen.........very little dealer stability with the JCB brand and I think that has been their problem nationwide.

I should have clarified a bit more.....I was referring to SSL/CTL market share only. Those numbers shake out to roughly 33% BC, 20% Cat, 19% Deere, 12% NH, 8% Case....then everyone else.

And I agree that making the sale, is only the first step. The machine certainly has to perform, and only time will tell that story. So far, we have had machines running in the field for over a year, and things are looking good.

Finally, as I have always stated, JCB's dealer network has been a weak link in the whole mix, and it is improving. Just 4 years ago, their NA dealer coverage was only about 63%. It is now about 85% and they are still working at it (Still weaker in the West than Central/East). Many dealers are stepping up their efforts, myself included.....



Keeping focus just because we also happen to be a Case (IH) dealer (....the last Case SSL I sold I had to take back....) shouldn't be an issue.

 

[JCBiron]

One last note KSSS.....Leave a couple days early next week and you can swing through STL and we'll make a believer out of you once and for all!

 

[KSSS]

Sounds more tempting on the way back, than on the way there, but I am game.

 

[JCBiron]

Any time you want to stop in STL, just let me know....new store should be up and running soon.

 

[dukeyjoe]

Well, I joined this forum after reading this whole thread. Really, enjoyed the civility and integrity based arguments within. For what it's worth, I had never heard of JCB till today. A fella has one for sale locally that I was planning on demoing this weekend. It's a 2005 1110T, bought new in 2007 with 1250 hrs., had new tracks at 1000 hrs., comes with a new Bradco grapple bucket, rake, non-toothed bucket, and pallet forks for $21K. Looks clean, kept inside, and sounds like a good deal, but after reading this thread and researching the new generation machines, I've kind of soured on it. I have only owned a Bobcat 773 and never a tracked machine, so I'm kind of new to this world. Would really like a cab, since I will be using the CTL mainly with an open brush cutter. Please let me know if you think this is some kind of homerun deal. TIA

 

[robin yates uk]

JCB is from the UK, they manufacture a variety of construction machines .They are in the top 3 of manufacturers making construction plant on 4 continents.They have been doing this for 67 years.I am a big fan of JCB having used the TBL as an owner driver.Excellent products!,,:notworthy:drinkup,, http://www.jcb.co.uk/About.aspx

 

[Ron Burgundy]

y is it so hard for people to believe jcb is as big as they are?? most ppl live in their own little world and are oblivious to anything outside of it.

Boy, that sure is true, in more ways than I care to get into. It has serious ramifications for our nation and the world.
I've been reading up on CTL's, etc., and if anything is true it's that nothing is best and everything has it's problems. I'm more confused than ever. I think I may just rent one when I need one, as much as I know it will suck to not have a machine at the ranch 24/7.

You know what this place could use? A definitions page: CTL (Compact Track Loader), MTL, SOB . It get's real confusing when so many companies have so much creativity. Too bad they can't standardize the industry. Speaking of that, why isn't the U.S. metric and why do Brits still drive on the wrong side of the road? LOL You know, all this change is coming. It may not come for a thousand years but it is coming. I'll bet my left nut that there will even be some sort of world government at some distant point - with present countries remaining semi-autonomous Change is happening and it is accelerating - it is inevitable.
BTW, somewhere out there, there is an asteroid with our name on it so I wouldn't get too worked up about whatever pisses you off. Have a nice day and be thankful for what you have.
Now, if I could only find a CAT 299D XHP for $20 grand.

 

[StumpyWally]

Ron:

I've been reading up on CTL's, etc., and if anything is true it's that nothing is best and everything has it's problems.

I couldn't agree more...but that's a common problem with a great many things. Unfortunately, you have to make tradeoffs. See my upcoming thread on "User Improvements to New Holland L220 SSL & Attachments" detailing my work on improving the NH L220 I bought last fall. Despite that, I still dream of a CTL w/ a side-entry JCB cab, 17.7" wide turf tracks over an ASV-style suspension system, at least 12" or more of ground clearance, NH-style cab-operated boom lock & a somewhat cushioned boom stop on the bottom, an easy, assisted cab tilt, a NH-style rear drawbar w/ over/under receiver tubes, integral side lights like a Case, very easy filter access like a combination of Cat & JCB w/ NH-style remote engine oil drain & filter mount, integral external rear view mirrors, a bright interior light w/ an auto-on switch position tied to the door opening, & on & on....

You know what this place could use? A definitions page: CTL (Compact Track Loader), MTL, SOB .

Might be nice, but there really aren't THAT many, & after you spend some time immersed in SSL/CTL looking & reading this HEF, the definitions start to become clear.

Too bad they can't standardize the industry.

Hell the car industry can't even standardize electrical connections....& they been at it a lot longer!!!

Speaking of that, why isn't the U.S. metric

Amen to that...should have done it 20 to 30 years ago & by now it would have been 2nd nature. As it is, almost all products (cars, equipment, etc) have long ago gone completely metric, & now we're struggling with both systems, 2 sets of wrenches/tools, multiple bolt/screw inventories.... It's insane!! You can blame Congress, as usual.

Now, if I could only find a CAT 299D XHP for $20 grand.

You're not just dreaming, you're in an alternate reality!!

 

[RCMEDIA]

if i was a dealer i would simply drop off the jcb machine at random establishments even if they didnt ask me to. once people get in it you would have buyers. i would also be a rich dealer and buy 40 or 50 of these skid steers and line them up along the road. that would sell them more than anything. it provides the illusion that it is the machine to have. our local skid steer dealers do that, and it works. the one dealer just got in like 15 wheeled terex machines along with 10 tracked ones. and he has never sold one in his life (wheeled machine). the other dealer has 20 or so new new hollands sitting there. they sell about 80 a year i guess.

i have a few concerns with the jcb. how much does a new door cost once it is rusted out from being covered in manure all the time? or when u wedge it against something and spring it. how much does a door seal cost? cuz that would need to be replaced often in our conditions. how does the door work when you get liquid manure on it in below freezing conditions? i think rubber mudflap fenders would almost be a necessity for us.

so once we would get a jcb, i dont think we would go back. however, if i trade a jcb on a new jcb is it going to cost a lot more than if i was trading a bobcat in on a bobcat? i understand that a bobcat dealer would give no money on trade for a jcb, i just wonder what a trade would be worth at a jcb dealer.

What goofy question - why not ask how long anything would last if you dump battery acid on it - eat your hearts our all you Bobcat / Cat /Case etc. owners - the side door is the best thing that ever happened to a skidsteer - looks like a lot of posters here are just that and have no idea what real world loader work is like - In one day on a job, I might jump off a loader 100 times moving roots, rocks, picking up, dumping trucks, talking to other contractors, etc. and climbing out of a coventional skidsteer slippery muddy bucket or climbing over a load or better yet climbing out with the load over your head is dangerous and non productive period. Don't know knock JCB they are the ones who are changing skidsteers for all you guys out there to make them better and safer. Price wise they are no more expensive and they have the only tier 4 without the fuel sucking fire hazard DPF muffler. Open your eyes its time to move up from the model A skidsteer fire trap cages with obstacles stopping us from getting some fresh air.

Thanks

 

[pafarmer]

Interesting machines. I must admit I find myself intrigued however, for now I think I shall stick with my CAT equipment and more importantly my CAT dealer....and observe from a distance how this plays out for JCB and their equipment and their dealer network and support to the end user. After all , at the end of the day that's where the rubber meets the dirt...