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ETF Mining trucks & Haul Trains

alco

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Jerry's right on the money. They have talked the talk for a few years now, but have still yet to field a prototype to show whether they can walk the walk.
 

JDOFMEMI

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I am sorry, i hadn't noticed that it has been discussed.

No worries. It has been a while since the topic came up. I would be interested in a working prototype to see if they come close to matching the hype.
 

alco

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I am sorry, i hadn't noticed that it has been discussed.

Don't be sorry, it was buried in another thread anyhow, so it would have been tough to find. Besides, this gives it another chance to be discussed:D

There's an outfit called Kress already building trucks of a similar design for hauling coal. Never came across them myself but last I heard there were quite a few working in Canada.

http://www.kresscarrier.com/coal.php

Nige, the Kress trucks are really nothing at all like the trucks ETF is proposing. The Kress trucks are simply a belly dump, unitized coal hauler with a rear engine.
 

alco

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Actually, it was discussed here as well, with the participation of ETF's CEO.

Even if he were to have searched for European Truck Factory, would this have shown up? Back then, they were called Emirates Truck Factory. Seems a bit fishy to me that they have changed names, the CEO has not posted anything in over 3 years, and they STILL don't have a prototype out. Something just doesn't seem right with the whole project/company.
 

digger242j

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Even if he were to have searched for European Truck Factory, would this have shown up? Back then, they were called Emirates Truck Factory.

LOL! I hadn't even noticed the change. I followed the link, and recognized the pretty pictures as the ones from Emirates Truck Factory, and didn't bother reading any further.

I guess if you're not going to actually build any, it doesn't matter where you don't actually build them... :beatsme
 

Nige

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G..G..G..Granville.........!! Fetch your cloth.
What struck me on their web site was that they were adamantly refusing to sell the trucks to any customer, instead insisting on a lease/rental deal where the customer had to commit to leasing the truck for the "whole life" of the vehicle (whatever that is), a deal that also included ETF being respoinsible for ALL maintenance of the machine. There was also an availablility guarantee that I personally thought they didn't have a snowball's chance in Hell of being able to achieve, especially with a new product.

On the face of it there are a lot of thing to like about the ETF concept. I hate to call it a design because I haven't seen any designs yet, just a load of glossy computer-generated simulations. But deep down I've got the same nagging doubts as Alco.
 

rare ss

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the statements in the slide show dont add up, like when referring to the tyre cost of the ETF truck vs the haul truck they didn't use the full amount of tyres on the ETF concept (due the abilty to raise some wheels without a load) 15min tyre change, maybe on the outside but a can't see that on the inside..

The idea is great, but a concept will only get you so far the only way to go is to build a prototype and develop the product
 

OzDozer

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These truck designs are merely visions, they have no outstanding benefits or advantages over current truck designs, that are actually working in mines - and I believe they will stay dreams and visions for a long time to come.
This is a classic example of a person keeping himself comfortable in a CEO's position for years, on shareholders or public money, without producing a single example of a working prototype or actually making a sale of any kind.

The design of the EFT truck is exceptionally complex, it's a high maintenance item, with an excessive amount of features that have no real application or measureable benefit.
There are no cost-benefit studies produced by the designer to back up his claims, and no real "nuts & bolts" dissection of the vital working parts, that have to endure severe service conditions.

This design, or proposed design poses no real threat to the current state-of-the-art electric drive dump trucks.
Caterpillar have already experimented with 100 different designs, back in the late 1950's/early 1960's, and they didn't reach the design of current trucks, and the volume of current sales, by picking the wrong design.

The only mistake that Cat have made is by sticking with mechanical drive in the bigger trucks for too long. Mechanical drive is far outclassed by electric drive in the larger sizes, because of weight savings and sheer efficiency.
Cat were obliged to stick with this drivetrain design, once they went down that path - but they have long known that electric drive was superior in the larger sizes, and sought to rectify that by buying an electric truck manufacturer.
The fiasco of the failed Terex takeover in the early 2000's was a wrench in Cats wheelspokes that they didn't need - but the takeover of Bucyrus has seen them back on track, to where they originally wanted to be, 10 or 12 years ago.
That track sees Cat (or one of its subsidiaries) producing electric dump trucks in the larger sizes as their major direction, with mechanical drive being the forte of the smaller range.
 

Contraman

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As I like to deal in facts I thought I would email the company and ask them if they were for real or just a concept

Here is the reply I got.

"ETF Trucks are a reality!
After 8.5 tears of development we are now building our f irst three trucks for shipment to Brazil".

Best regards,

Eddy de Jongh
CEO
ETF European Truck Factory GmbH
 

OzDozer

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Hmmmm .. did he really mean to say 8.5 years? - or was that a Freudian slip?? :D I reckon there will probably be a lot more tears yet, before these trucks find any market.
I've chatted with Eddy on ACME, he's a "dreams and schemes" man, and is pretty intelligent; but trying to garner sales from end-users - who buy long-established manufacturers products, that have the reputation, sales and service back-up, resale value, and proven designs that work - by offering them a totally radical new design, with maybe some slight advantages, is going to be a hard road to hoe. :(
If you want to crack a market, you have to offer ideas that present immediate cost savings or obvious, measureable improvements in efficiency, to buyers .. and then you generally have to place your product into their fleet - gratis - while you show them these real advantages in a practical manner. Otherwise, you're asking the client to be your test bed, at their cost - and that isn't something, anyone wants to be.
 

JDOFMEMI

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The "Y" and the "T" being so close on the keyboard has undoubtedly caused more than one headache. A guy I worked for once had cards printed up and they came from the print shop reading "Serving the industry for 25 tears"
That created a lot of jokes around the company.
 

Hendrik

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I can't see much advantage in the single truck operation, as has been said the current dump truck set up has proven itself to be reliable.
The haul train looks to be more advantageous insofar you only need one operator but a fault in one of the tucks will stop the entire train, that's why mining operations generally prefer the single truck operation. If you have a fleet of 20 dump trucks and you lose one, the operation can continue with a 5% loss of production, if you run 5 of these haul trains and you lose one you are 20% down on production.
Perhaps they can find a market in the longer distance haul operation which are served currently by road trains http://www.bislimited.com/forms/innovation_dualpoweredpithauler.aspx
Far as their self loader idea goes, by the looks of it the windrow has to be prepared by dozers and/or graders in order to be picked up. Can't see any advantage compared to traditional loading with an excavator/shovel or wheel loader.
 

alco

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The only mistake that Cat have made is by sticking with mechanical drive in the bigger trucks for too long. Mechanical drive is far outclassed by electric drive in the larger sizes, because of weight savings and sheer efficiency.

I'm going to have to disagree on that one OzDozer. Cat has proven without a doubt that the mechanical drive is a very viable drive system on the large trucks. In fact, I can think of conditions where mechanical drive blows electric out of the water. Namely, soft conditions. Which is why Cat is not moving away from mechanical drive in their largest truck.

Cat were obliged to stick with this drivetrain design, once they went down that path - but they have long known that electric drive was superior in the larger sizes, and sought to rectify that by buying an electric truck manufacturer.

Electric has it's areas where it shines, and so does mechanical drive.. No matter what the size, either has applications where they excel, and fail when compared to the other. Buying an electric truck manufacturer was never what Cat was ultimately after, it was always a part of the package they had to take, to get what they really wanted......shovels.

The fiasco of the failed Terex takeover in the early 2000's was a wrench in Cats wheelspokes that they didn't need - but the takeover of Bucyrus has seen them back on track, to where they originally wanted to be, 10 or 12 years ago.

There was no failed takeover in the early 2000s. It was a proposed technology swap, but Cat felt the truck line wasn't worth what Terex felt it was. The swap would have given the truck line to Cat, and Cat's failed shovel line to Terex with the rights to sell and support the Terex shovel line going to Cat. Yes, it was more complicated than that, but I'm trying to keep it simple and easier to understand.

That track sees Cat (or one of its subsidiaries) producing electric dump trucks in the larger sizes as their major direction, with mechanical drive being the forte of the smaller range.

Like I said earlier, Cat won't be producing electric trucks in the large sizes as their major direction. They are going to offer both mechanical and electric, not because they feel electric is superior, but because they recognise that both have their applications they excel at, and they want to cover the whole market's needs.

I ask you this, if electric is superior in the largest trucks, then why do the mechanical trucks outsell all of their competitors in the largest of the ultra class?
 

alco

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I can't see much advantage in the single truck operation, as has been said the current dump truck set up has proven itself to be reliable.
The haul train looks to be more advantageous insofar you only need one operator but a fault in one of the tucks will stop the entire train, that's why mining operations generally prefer the single truck operation. If you have a fleet of 20 dump trucks and you lose one, the operation can continue with a 5% loss of production, if you run 5 of these haul trains and you lose one you are 20% down on production.

I agree, but I wonder if you could simply remove one unit that was down from a train and keep running with only four? I understand their idea for the road trains was to have the trucks meet up in the pit, and one driver run the train out of the pit, dump it, and return. I have to wonder, where do the other drivers go while the train is on it's journey to dump?

Perhaps they can find a market in the longer distance haul operation which are served currently by road trains.

That's a really good point. I know one of the selling points of HaulMax trucks is their high speed on long hauls. I wonder if there would be a niche in that segment they could exploit?

Far as their self loader idea goes, by the looks of it the windrow has to be prepared by dozers and/or graders in order to be picked up. Can't see any advantage compared to traditional loading with an excavator/shovel or wheel loader.

The only thing I can see working there, is in mines run like the ones where they have surface miners preparing material and loading it out with loaders into conventional off road trucks. Maybe there would be an advantage to having these trains roll through and load themselves?
 
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