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JCB Skid Steer

dave esterns

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2010
Messages
597
Location
madison
yes. the people who are loyal to one brand are an interesting breed. i think it is quite funny really. its like the big rivalry among farmers between red and green. many a friends literally quit talking to each other for life because one or the other switched from red to green or visa versa. for these people there is no hope. they will never leave their brand they are perfectly content living in darkness. for us younger types, we could not care less what color or name something has on it. if it is a good value, it is an option. i would like to see how the visibility test was done, because im confident those results are debatable.
 

barklee

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 4, 2009
Messages
903
Location
ohio
I think JCB has had innovative ideas on many different applications but as said above they havent expanded on those! The resale and parts are what scares me about the brand. I hope they do build a good skid and push the technology envelope. I am rooting for them (although not buying yet) becasue they are family owned.
As said above with the telehandelers having a 33% market share i find that one tough to swallow. Maybe you are right but there are so many other brands with a far better machine than JCB. Expecially in Europe. Maybe Sunbelt rentals is the sole company giving them the 33%?????
 

dave esterns

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2010
Messages
597
Location
madison
y is it so hard for people to believe jcb is as big as they are?? most ppl live in their own little world and are oblivious to anything outside of it.
 

KSSS

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 27, 2005
Messages
4,319
Location
Idaho
Occupation
excavation
That is up to the dealer, but ultimately, tell me how that can happen if, say, a "Case Guy" isn't willing to give something a try (for free no less) and give it an honest evaluation.


If a test is subjective its really not scientific and factual. I get what your saying just giving you a hard time.


As far as trying other machines: I have bought 16 new CASE skid steers since 95 and each time before I buy, I have run another machines as a comparision. Usually its Bobcat but the last time it was CAT. I would try a JCB and give it a fair evaluation. But you have to convince me that the dealer will be there, and that the product will have some value when it comes time to trade in. I will even let up on some of the resale value if the dealer is strong. Otherwise even if it runs good, I am still not going to buy one. Like I said a truck dealership just took over the JCB dealer here, and I doubt they are very strong nor do I think they will last. Hard to buy machines from temporary dealers.
 
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Digdeep

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2007
Messages
704
Location
Wisconsin
y is it so hard for people to believe jcb is as big as they are?? most ppl live in their own little world and are oblivious to anything outside of it.

It's not aboput getting over how big JCB is, it's about how JCB product is perceived in the US market. Here is the list of the top 20 OEMs going into 2010 as it relates to sales:

View attachment From001.PDF

You can see that JCB was number 17 in 2009 going into 2010, down from #14 with a 2% global market share and revenues of $2.182 billion. They may be #3 by volume, but even Terex is ahead of them in revenues (one of only two US OEMs in the top 10..CAT being #1).
 
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JCBiron

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2010
Messages
167
Location
St. Louis, MO
I think JCB has had innovative ideas on many different applications but as said above they havent expanded on those! The resale and parts are what scares me about the brand. I hope they do build a good skid and push the technology envelope. I am rooting for them (although not buying yet) becasue they are family owned.
As said above with the telehandelers having a 33% market share i find that one tough to swallow. Maybe you are right but there are so many other brands with a far better machine than JCB. Expecially in Europe. Maybe Sunbelt rentals is the sole company giving them the 33%?????

The market data is there. National Accounts absolutely make up a big part of the market share, but that is with any telehandler manufacturer. I would take anyone up on an argument that there is a better telehandler out there. There are definitely cheaper products (I'm not knocking quality, simply price), especially for lift and place machines (skytrac, JLG, etc), but you also have to look at the features you are getting for the money. And that is where I feel JCB overengineers their telehandlers. For example, our new range of 507/509/510 models all come standard with powershift transmissions and hydraulic servo controls, among other "high spec" features. For most rental yards, these features aren't really necessary for the intended rental house use, and therefore tend to price the machine a bit too high.

As far as them being family owned, I don't see that as a negative, but I understand that point can be argued both ways. Here's how I see it: Most people don't know, but JCB, a global company, operates with ZERO long term debt. This is an impressive feat, just ask any business owner, and remarkable considering their size. Also, with what we have seen recently with publicly traded companies deemed "too big to fail," I think that is as much reason to be gun-shy than any other, not saying that Cat or Deere will be government owned any time soon, just for sake of argument.

I've said it once and I'll say it again, I understand the apprehension most people have on JCB parts. I'm not going to sit here and say we don't have issues, however, I am not naieve (sp?) enough to think that other OEM's don't have issues....the grass is always greener on the other side. And being a dealer for another brand (Case IH), I can tell you that everyone has problems.

Which brings me to another comment I would like to address: Yes there are and have been "temporary dealers" for JCB. This is no fault of anyone but JCB. For a long time they were seeking out anyone and everyone who wanted to fly their flag. This is NOT the way to do things. I don't care if a dealer has one brand, or 1000, it all comes down to the dealer's committment to the product line. JCB has finally realized this and are pushing for dealer "rebranding", and also being more stringent on their selections. They know it's an issue, and are actively working to resolve it, unfortunately, it is a tedious process.

Finally, I did qualify my #3 statement by saying that it was volume of units, not dollars. Obviously a company selling nothing bigger than a 100,000lb excavator cannot compete $$-wise with Cat, Komatsu or Terex, who can sell 1 piece worth 5 MIL.
 

JCBiron

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2010
Messages
167
Location
St. Louis, MO
If a test is subjective its really not scientific and factual. I get what your saying just giving you a hard time.


As far as trying other machines: I have bought 16 new CASE skid steers since 95 and each time before I buy, I have run another machines as a comparision. Usually its Bobcat but the last time it was CAT. I would try a JCB and give it a fair evaluation. But you have to convince me that the dealer will be there, and that the product will have some value when it comes time to trade in. I will even let up on some of the resale value if the dealer is strong. Otherwise even if it runs good, I am still not going to buy one. Like I said a truck dealership just took over the JCB dealer here, and I doubt they are very strong nor do I think they will last. Hard to buy machines from temporary dealers.

I completely understand your point (and I actually sell Case skids as well). One of the reasons I signed up for this forum was to argue (cause it's fun!), and to get a better understanding of what makes equipment owners tick (and also because I have been around equipment in one way shape or form my whole life and love it).

Kudos to you for at least trying another brand. There are a lot of guys that won't even give something different a second look. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that your most important criteria for machine purchase is dealer strength/support? It's always hard to convey sincerity on a computer screen, but if you don't mind my asking, as an equipment/business owner, what does it take for a dealer that has been around for 40 years, and picked up a new line 5 years ago to show this type of strength/committment (assuming the machine performs exceptionally)? I'm not trying to sound like a smart *ss, but am truly asking an honest question.

And thank you for catching my vocab slip, I'm usually pretty strict on that! (ps. Nice website)
 
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dave esterns

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2010
Messages
597
Location
madison
jcbiron. do you know for sure if the joysticks on the new jcb skid steers are electric or hydraulic? cuz this vid clearly shows hydraulic hoses going to the joystick but everyone i talk to claims they are electric. i would find it hard to believe they would run the hoses to the joystick if it was electric. maybe the right joystick only is electric?
 

JCBiron

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Joined
Aug 13, 2010
Messages
167
Location
St. Louis, MO
jcbiron. do you know for sure if the joysticks on the new jcb skid steers are electric or hydraulic? cuz this vid clearly shows hydraulic hoses going to the joystick but everyone i talk to claims they are electric. i would find it hard to believe they would run the hoses to the joystick if it was electric. maybe the right joystick only is electric?

Currently, the Next Generation Servos are Hydraulic. I have heard rumors that Electric over Hyd. are in the works, but nothing more than that.
 

barklee

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 4, 2009
Messages
903
Location
ohio
Regarding the telehandelers; My line of thought was that the JCB lifts were on the cheap. I had one rented about 4 years ago for 6-8 months and didnt care for it. It lacked power (lifting and driving), had poor lines of sight, wasnt remotely smooth, and was always broken. It was almost new at the time and was the 8000 lbs unit (dont know the model). Im not trying to make JCB look bad and i do think being family owned is a huge plus to me! I have had little experience with the brand other than the telehandeler. I just know the horror stories on parts for the backhoes and poor overall performance of the skids. That is the tough one to get over! I wouldnt give them a second chance on the telehandelers but i will look at them the next time we buy a skid (i like the side door enough to do so). Also, i would be willing to look at thier mini ex as well.
 

Yellowdog

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 22, 2004
Messages
208
I'm like KSSS when it comes to purchasing new machines. Since early 1997, I've owned 8 new large framed bobcats, 1 medium frame (773g), an excavator, and a toolcat. I am an owner operator and I like new technology and a minimum of repairs and I look for dealer support as my first choice right now.

I tried another brand for awhile and was sold on the hype and stupidly sold two of my s300's that were in good condition and reliable for this other brand because it was the latest and the greatest. The "other" brand's service department could not get the kinks out of my new machine and I lost about 2 months of production overall until they bought the machine back. For that, I give them kudos but the lost production (even with a slightly lower powered loaner and the aggravation) still gives me nightmares. :)

I ended up going back to a K series Bobcat. Admittedly "old school" technology compared to what I was trying out, but it has been reliable and productive. I am approaching 1600 or 1700 hours since August of '08 on that machine alone and it is still going strong.
The dealer support at Bobcat has been great over the years.

My point is that dealer support..going the extra mile, having service trucks to help you in the field without pulling teeth or raping you on charges is a big plus. Personally, Bobcat has been good to me and only recently have I had to question some of the repair charges and strive to do more work myself to afford the repairs.
Bobcat engineers get back to me if I ask a question and that's pretty cool.
I am not naive and have made an effort to try other brands but I do not get a lot of confidence when the salesmen don't know much about their product or want a credit application before they even talk seriously with me. I've been around long enough and owned enough machines that I won't play that game.

I know everyone has to make a buck. Lord knows dealers up-charge on parts. I've seen the invoice on a $1 part at my chipper dealer and when it gets passed to the customer that part is $10. Ouch. We all have costs and anyone "new" or trying to grow in market share has to bring something different to the table and I like discounts!
I realize a lot of independent dealers may not want to subsidize or go that extra mile once a machine is sold so it should be a corporate mandate that they do *through subsidies) and I mean a strict followup to make sure the customer is happy.

If you were closer, I'd give the JCB a try and see what the machines can do. I am not up on JCB specs, they look cool, but I've seen some of the older ones that didn't impress me too much. I do like the side door..
I mulch about 40% of the time and need hydraulic power, comfortable cab, and something that isn't going to be a torch in the woods.

Personally, if I was a dealer in this area trying to move their new products, I'd be out showing the guys they can find.. searching local websites and offering demos and discounts to get someone to talk.

Anyway, that's my two cents.
 

dave esterns

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2010
Messages
597
Location
madison
jcbiron. so they are talking of offering electric joysticks as an option? what would be the point of that? so when you say servo... do you mean servo or pilot? if its a servo joystick, i would be impressed, because no one else does that. from my experience servo controls are just as responsive as manual controls, and pilot controls are less responsive than servo. also, do you know what the optional multifunction joystick is about?
 

KSSS

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 27, 2005
Messages
4,319
Location
Idaho
Occupation
excavation
I think that is a fair question. Normally I don't give dealer presence as much weight as I do when I discuss JCB. Be it Deere, CAT or CASE all are well established here, Bobcat was until the Deere dealer who carried BC sold out and the BC line went out on their own (actually Intermountain Bobcat from Utah put a store up here as a stand alone BC dealer) they closed the store. So now BC has been picked up by an independant rental store, we'll see how that goes. But the moral of all of that is normally I don't have to worry about dealer support 'cause its just here. JCB however is different, they were here until the stores switched to carrying Volvo and dropped their JCB line leaving everyone that did own JCB equipment stranded. JCB was down to one store in Idaho until recently. Honestly I don't see a lot of committment by the brand to stay established, at least here.

I will say that if a long standing dealer picks up the JCB line that is different. You have proven you have staying power and you did not just blow into town and throw out a JCB shingle and call yourself established. That has not happened in this area and even if it did, it would take some serious convincing that they are committed to the JCB product line.

When it comes to buying skid steers, for me productivity is king. We do a lot with skid steers, probably more than we should, but we have a killer ROI. To do what I need to do, I want high torque, large displacement engines, good breakout and robust construction. CASE up till now has given me that (I am switching gears now). So you can imagine how upset was when I saw some early specs on the newest CNH machines. Lower torque and smaller displacement, killer breakout numbers but to mulch up to 10K feet or moving material on steep slopes at high alt you need torque. I have been asked to come to the CASE factory in Witchita and the testing facility in Goodyear, AZ and run machines on occasion and offer some imput.

I sent an email to CASE concerning issues I saw on the new machines. They are sending me to Goodyear in Feb to run them but I think the machines are done, so it will just be an opportunity for me to run them and realize that the machines can still get it done or that I was right and they jacked up a good machine and I will research someone elses machines to buy. Ultimately I need the productivity regardless of color, I prefer that be CASE but only if the product gets it done.
 

Digdeep

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Mar 6, 2007
Messages
704
Location
Wisconsin
jcbiron. so they are talking of offering electric joysticks as an option? what would be the point of that? so when you say servo... do you mean servo or pilot? if its a servo joystick, i would be impressed, because no one else does that. from my experience servo controls are just as responsive as manual controls, and pilot controls are less responsive than servo. also, do you know what the optional multifunction joystick is about?

I think he's referring to the "servo piston". There is usually two for each pump (two drive motors to pump oil to). It is either mechanically shifted, hydraulically shifted (you refer to them as pilot controls), or shifted via electronics (E/H).
 

dave esterns

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Joined
Oct 23, 2010
Messages
597
Location
madison
first of all im impressed bobcat has been getting away with manually controlled pumps for so long now. and it is still their most popular setup. who is the one who started mechanical servo controls? pilot controls? i know cat was first in the us, but im talking in the world. it seems like the rest of the world uses pilot iso. is there a big difference in the pumps between manual controls like bobcat and servo controlled ones as far as the swash plate is concerned? or is all of the servo and pilot stuff basically bolt on to a standard pump. so if the jcb has hydraulic hoses going to the armrest, that would have to mean pilot right?
 

JCBiron

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Joined
Aug 13, 2010
Messages
167
Location
St. Louis, MO
Thanks for all the replies fellas. To clarify the Pilot/Servo discussion....

In my area, the words Servo and Pilot are used interchangibly, but understand that what you are probably referring to is the difference between a servo machine that uses a "Pilot or ISO" pattern, vs. a servo machine that uses an "H" pattern (like a Case can have). The JCB skid steers have always had hydraulic servo controls; i.e. hydraulic fluid running into the joystick and operating spools to control machine movement. I know for sure that the Cat machines have been electric over hydraulic, so I suppose if you didn't want to use the word servo, that would maybe make sense. Electronic joysticks firing hydraulic spools.

This is the type of controls that JCB is rumored to be changing to in a couple of years (Elec. over Hyd.) As far as the Multi-function Joystick, this is simply the electronic switches on the tops of the control handles that are connected to the 14 Pin connection on the front of the machine to run attachments.

KSSS, I'm right there with you on the new Case machines. Not real sure how they will pan out, and to me, if you were to take the boom and loader towers off, look a lot like a NH chassis. Thank you for your reply, I appreciate it.
 

dave esterns

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2010
Messages
597
Location
madison
so if you dont get the multifunction joystick, how do you control your auxiliary hydraulics? is it still a button on the joystick? like bobcat? it doesnt sound like i would have any use for a multifunction because none of my attachments have more than one hydraulic cylinder on them. well discovering the differences between control systems has been a long process for me. i wouldn't wanna use pilot and servo interchangeably. for example, the standard case is mechanically servo controlled, h pattern. and for 2200 dollars you can get pilot controlled servos. with the case servo controls, you cant get the iso pattern. with the case pilot controls, you can get either h or iso pattern. i have never heard of a mechanically servo controlled machine of any brand with iso controls. (well the gehl iso t bar is the closest) the question is Y is everyone going to electric controls. is it cheaper to build? i doubt cheaper to maintain? just because that is the in thing to be doing? more efficient? the only thing i can think of is with pilot controls (unlike servo controls) you dont have full control response at low rpms. and in cold weather they can be problematic? this would be overcome by electric servos. maybe you get less of a lag time with electric? from what i understand with servo controls you can still feel your machine (not as much as bobcats manual controls). and i hear you can barely feel your machine with pilots. obviously nothing with electric. so if i could choose a jcb with pilots or electric joysticks, what would i want?
 
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