Are Scrapers Becoming Obsolete?

[swampdog]

We had this discussion yesterday. One person claimed that scrapers are becoming obsolete - that excavators and six wheel drive off-road trucks are taking over most of the work once done by scrapers.

Come to think of it, the highway construction projects around here are using lots of excavators and the new fangled dumpers to move dirt from borrow pits and for longer distances. Scraper numbers may be down.

Will this trend continue, in your opinion? Or will there always be a place for scrapers?

 

[Buckethead]

It depends on the conditions. If it is wet or rocky I think excavator and back dumps are more efficient. I think on a site conducive to them scrapers can be more productive.

 

[Gavin84w]

There is no cheaper way to move dirt given the right conditions, scrapers are not dieing, in fact Caterpillar up to the time the GFC kicked in were very, very actively promoting them again and had been making big inroads into a lot of areas. We are assisting them with setting up VIMS on them and simulators are among other things some initiatives that are going on to bring them more up to speed with the technologies around them.

 

[John C.]

I wouldn't think that scrapers will disappear until the jobs they accomplish disappear. There are many societal issues going on right now that limit the number and type of jobs where they fit the business plan.

Mining and road building is where they shine and the number of new mines or super large road building projects has dried up in the States. While there is much talk of stimulus by putting money in huge infrastructure projects, most of what I have seen is really corporate welfare. I have seen no money assigned to the kinds of projects that fit the use of a scraper fleet.

Scraper fleets require a huge support structure to support their operation. Multiple push cats, graders and leveling dozers are required not to mention a team of mechanincs to keep all this iron running.

Initial capital costs for scrapers is huge. I would imagine a good used 631G would run $300,000 to $500,000 to purchase and a new one getting close to the million dollar mark. While a loader and articulated truck might run that much for new, you have greater flexibility in the types and number of jobs you can accomplish with them.

Probably the biggest issue now with scrapers has to do with the green movement. I've looked at many 25 year and older units that could be put to work with a week of repair and get ready. But those old engines belched huge amounts of fuel soot into the air and went through fuel like we drink water. Society will just not accept the pollution that is readily visible every time one starts up. Companies are being limited in how much they can use machinery with non conforming engines.

Yes, scrapers are the most cost effective way to move huge amounts of dirt and yes there will be jobs for them in the future when the right circumstances come along that provides sufficient profit for their use. For now, most of the companies that I am familier with, are purchasing the types of gear that is more flexible in the types of projects it can do.

 

[tippatone]

So will these be phased out in apprenticeship training programs you guys think?

 

[Turbo21835]

I doubt scrapers would be phased out of apprenticeship programs. They still have a place. Unfortunately, in most areas, the good scraper ground is gone. Not only that, the type of development that they are best suited for is not really being done right now. Right now most of the work going on in the area is small sites, usually wet, and sometimes used as a dirt dump before. One of the current sites I am working is an acre and a half site. It used to be a wooded lot. Top that off, it is 2 feet below the county drainage ditch. The jobs in big farm fields that will be developed into malls/shopping centers will return eventually. Around here these jobs cover major acreage, and usually have no more than 3 feet of cut/fills. Pretty good work to do with a scraper vs a hoe/truck.

 

[Buckethead]

Scrapers (or pans as we often call them around here) are very productive at stripping topsoil from large areas.

 

[stumpjumper83]

Scrapers are not perfect but they one require one operator per machine in optimal conditions to load, carry and fill. That gives them a nitch in the excavating game. why bring in 4 trucks, an excavator, and a dozer when you can do it with 1 dozer and 4 pans?

 

[Phil]

I don't think they will ever be obsolete, they are just too efficient at certain jobs. The cost of new and used Cat scrapers has had the greatest impact on their use, I think, especially for the smaller companies. The small contractor cannot go to an equipment dealer and look at the scrapers for sale. Lines of used excavators, dozers, trucks, but no scrapers. Most used Cat motor scrapers demand a premium, don't depreciate as other machines do, and are often sold privately especially when times are normal, and never make it to an auction or dealer.

The big jobs are disappearing, that hasn't helped. The perception that scrapers have got to fly has limited the operators life on one and increased operating costs. A Cat scraper is a complicated machine. The cost, diversity, and availability of excavators out there has made every contractor use them for earth moving, whether it's cheaper per yard or not.

Just my opinion, Phil

 

[mikef87]

There is one contractor I know of in Massachusetts who has them, there is no real scraper or big dozer work now, but those scrapers can move some dirt. I wouldn't say its a dieing breed, just on hibernation till the economy picks up and some big dirt needs to be moved.

 

[ronnie]

i'm a huge fan of scrapers they are what i started out on i don't have a problem with trucks in the right condition but i still like scrapers the only thing anymore is finding the guys to set in the seat not just a lever puller but someone who can actually cut grade all day long and make teh fill look like something not someone who is only lookin for a paycheck dirt moving equipment is'nt goin obsolite it's the operator thats goin away almost anybody can pull a lever to make a bed dump not everyone can set down a bowl and get a load and make it look good at the end of the day

 

[excavator22]

I like scrapers and always will, they are the best for moving large amounts of fill. I'm in Florida and a lot of contractors do use the excavator and off-road trucks. I like using them cause they can strip off the unsuitables faster than anything else, but like Ronnie said its hard to find operators that can run these machines and not sit there and say that their back hurts and their neck is sore from turning around all day.

 

[SterlingR]

Most everyone here has gone to pull pans with big John Deere Ag. tractors. The old scraper market is dieing it's just the facts. You have who Cat and Terex who sell new scrapers. Remember Cat is a master at marketing so if you have a product with little competition it's not hard to focus time, money and effort in area's of the world that still call for that application. We some times forget these Manufactures are world wide, not just the US.

 

[tippatone]

I like scrapers and always will, they are the best for moving large amounts of fill. I'm in Florida and a lot of contractors do use the excavator and off-road trucks. I like using them cause they can strip off the unsuitables faster than anything else, but like Ronnie said its hard to find operators that can run these machines and not sit there and say that their back hurts and their neck is sore from turning around all day.

I wish I could get a shot at a seat in a scraper, my butt hurts sitting in this office, my butt would feel nice in a scraper

 

[BIG D]

every machine has its place.around 50 miles from where I live the is a rather large new road being built by Mashuda contractors the fleet of newer scraper is huge at least 25 big scrapers and maybe 10 all terrain dump trucks when it comes to moving Dirt in wisc they know how to due it.when driving by we didnt have a camera but what a site Double D10s pushing my guess the scrapers were moving much more material or they wont be using them I will try to get a photo when setting in a bunch what a site thanks the BiG D

 

[DPete]

There's nothing like open bowl scrapers and push cats to get the real dirt moved. The wannabe farm scrapers are good for keeping up the haul roads :cool2

 

[992G]

There's nothing like open bowl scrapers and push cats to get the real dirt moved. The wannabe farm scrapers are good for keeping up the haul roads :cool2

You said it DPete:notworthy

 

[stretch]

There is one contractor I know of in Massachusetts who has them, there is no real scraper or big dozer work now, but those scrapers can move some dirt. I wouldn't say its a dieing breed, just on hibernation till the economy picks up and some big dirt needs to be moved.

Is that Borgaard? I haven't heard of them getting jobs here in CT lately, how's the situation for them up north?

In southern New England, there are a few larger contractors that have scrapers, but I haven't seen any at work for at least a year. Those guys also have decent-sized fleets of excavators and ADT's and that's mostly what I've been seeing at work. Manafort couldn't even find a place for their pans on the Route 72 project.

In a lot of areas in our region, there may be a couple of feet of good topsoil, but underneath that is rock, obviously not prime scraper material and better suited for ADT/excavator work. I wouldn't consider them obsolete, just that work has dried up around here for them.

 

[ronnie]

Dpete you said but it's not the machine thats going out it's the operator not all scraper operators are gone there some still around but thr younger generation needs things to be like a video game with a/c they coukd never stand an old 31c with an open cab when your hot and your shirt is soaked with sweet and dust equals mud oh yeah those were the days and if thats not enough the heat from the motor was enough to make you pass out you could'nt hear a train commin at the end of the day but they don't know what it's like to come off a mtn. haulin a%% cross a busy hwy. with traffic stopped just to make it up the other side nothin like a big scraper crew with the nuckle heads weeded out and everybody workin as a team scrapers will live it's the operator who is dying

 

[Gavin84w]

Yep you are right Ronnie and Cat are going the same way with scrapers as with most model lines, creating simulators. Sure they don't emulate the bumps and all those other good things you just described but with the art of scraper operating becoming even less popular yet the application for the machine out there is still vibrant it is the best they can come up with. We have the first simulators released coming down under to support the biggest scraper operator on the east coast of Australia and they view it as a positive step and will help them in there future business.