Trojan 1500z Deutz

[Reverse-engineer867]

Hi all,

Ive been tasked with Diag and repairing a F5L912 equipped loader. This spring it lost the fan belts and they continued to walk the loader without cooling for about 2 miles too cell service, Frying the engine. It still runs but has exhaust manifold leak most sever and plumes of black/grey smoke. How forgiving are these engines?

 

[Delmer]

the grey black smoke is not from an exhaust leak. Deutz are as forgiving as any engine, but you can't run any engine like that with no cooling, period. The pistons are probably scored, rings stuck, heads warped. The good news is if the rest of the engine was in good shape, then it's probably worth new cylinders, pistons and heads, and not that hard. I've been told if the bottom end needs work, it's not worth it. Easy enough to find a new, or used engine if you're not in a rush.

 

[Reverse-engineer867]

the grey black smoke is not from an exhaust leak. Deutz are as forgiving as any engine, but you can't run any engine like that with no cooling, period. The pistons are probably scored, rings stuck, heads warped. The good news is if the rest of the engine was in good shape, then it's probably worth new cylinders, pistons and heads, and not that hard. I've been told if the bottom end needs work, it's not worth it. Easy enough to find a new, or used engine if you're not in a rush.

Alrighty thanks. Ive never encountered such an engine in my career, i will pull the manifolds and suspect ports that are damp will have some sort of ring/piston issue. However it did get hot enough to melt all the rubber and wires on the plenum side so the valve seals cannot be to happy. I imagine the rotating assembly is still good to a degree, it spins free and wasn’t making noise the last time I herd it running.

 

[56wrench]

Actually, they are fairly easy engines to work on but you have to wrap your head around the Deutz way of doing things. And by that I mean don’t take any shortcuts and use the Deutz service manual for the 912 engine. You can make a couple of the service tools and a fixture to bolt to each cyl head to true up the cylinder sealing surface in a lathe. The long cylinder studs are likely stretched past the limit and will need to be replaced. Piston crown clearance needs to be checked and shimmed on reassembly and all the cyl heads have to be perfectly aligned before and during tightening. Critical torques are ‘torque-turn’ as per specs. The bottom end is fairly tough but if it got that hot then all bets are off. What does the engine oil look and smell like? Remove the oil filter and check for bearing material and go from there. They can be an expensive engine to repair properly compared to other engines. Also the crankshaft seals may start leaking if it got excessively hot

 

[Reverse-engineer867]

Actually, they are fairly easy engines to work on but you have to wrap your head around the Deutz way of doing things. And by that I mean don’t take any shortcuts and use the Deutz service manual for the 912 engine. You can make a couple of the service tools and a fixture to bolt to each cyl head to true up the cylinder sealing surface in a lathe. The long cylinder studs are likely stretched past the limit and will need to be replaced. Piston crown clearance needs to be checked and shimmed on reassembly and all the cyl heads have to be perfectly aligned before and during tightening. Critical torques are ‘torque-turn’ as per specs. The bottom end is fairly tough but if it got that hot then all bets are off. What does the engine oil look and smell like? Remove the oil filter and check for bearing material and go from there. They can be an expensive engine to repair properly compared to other engines. Also the crankshaft seals may start leaking if it got excessively hot

I did some googling and got a 912 manual pdf. It seems like this engine was developed with the KISS (Keep it Simple Stupid) principal. Luckily all parts are readily available in Edmonton Alberta with a lead time of 2-3 weeks on heads, Its looking about 700$ +/- per cylinder for jug/piston/head/shims/gaskets. However I’m in the boonies with no machining equipment available. If the heads aren’t too warped, hopefully I can get away with a glass plate and emery cloth for truing the surfaces if it comes down to it. After I got the belts back on it initially, it still walked 10km out of the bush back to its base. Maybe got lucky. The oil is a bit cooked but not horrible, as well it didn’t consume any oil to speak of. Pure speculation here but think the exhaust manifold leak was resulting in turbo drive pressure issue so it was running N/A with fuel for a boosted engine. Hopefully.

 

[56wrench]

You can’t lap the heads on a flat surface because the sealing surface is recessed by a few mm, that’s why they have to be chucked in a lathe for the best results. Were you checking parts at Simpson-Maxwell?

 

[Delmer]

The engine won't over fuel just because the turbo is leaking or not operating, until it's loaded up, which it shouldn't be just walking. The fuel is the only way the engine speed is controlled, more fuel, more speed. Less fuel, less speed. No turbo just means it won't have that extra power at full load, and will smoke when it didn't before with heavy load.

Do a compression test, or loosen injector lines to see which are dead. Usually the back, but if it had no air, then any but the front one could be leaking bad. Do you hear piston slap from galled pistons?

Nemo parts have been recommended to me.

 

[Reverse-engineer867]

You can’t lap the heads on a flat surface because the sealing surface is recessed by a few mm, that’s why they have to be chucked in a lathe for the best results. Were you checking parts at Simpson-Maxwell?

Roger that, I called the first hit on google for deutz parts Edmonton, Diesel Parts Warehouse LTD. I don't think a lathe will help lol i just got into it this evening. is the best opinion for course of action tear down the entire top end or just remove this one head and if the piston/jug is in decent condition just replace the head and call it good with new studs or do the whole kit and caboodle for the cylinder? The other 3 look to have clean ports.

 

[Delmer]

You know what best is. If you want less than best, which might be good enough, start it up after you plug the oil line, and see which cylinders are blowing smoke, and which are blowing exhaust out the side of the head, and loosen the injection lines to see which cylinders are weak.

 

[Reverse-engineer867]

The engine won't over fuel just because the turbo is leaking or not operating, until it's loaded up, which it shouldn't be just walking. The fuel is the only way the engine speed is controlled, more fuel, more speed. Less fuel, less speed. No turbo just means it won't have that extra power at full load, and will smoke when it didn't before with heavy load.

Do a compression test, or loosen injector lines to see which are dead. Usually the back, but if it had no air, then any but the front one could be leaking bad. Do you hear piston slap from galled pistons?

Nemo parts have been recommended to me.

100% but dreams and nightmares are free lol. I will see if MEMO can build me a quote tomorrow. When it walked back to its yard it didn’t sound bad enough to call the tow truck..

 

[willie59]

Just to let you know, most applications of the 912 used electric fuel solenoid for fuel shutdown. If your engine is so equipped that fuel solenoid should be wired through a switch on the fan belt tensioner, either directly or via a relay. Fan belt breaks, engine shuts down, full stop, no chance of fried engine from fan belt failure. You might ought to look into that. BTW, prolly the best engine for your climate, damn near bullet proof, never needs antifreeze/coolant, and if the top end is tight they light up fairly well in the cold.

 

[56wrench]

Do those intake ports look dusty or is it my imagination? I’ve never seen an exhaust leak like that on an air-cooled deutz

 

[Reverse-engineer867]

Just to let you know, most applications of the 912 used electric fuel solenoid for fuel shutdown. If your engine is so equipped that fuel solenoid should be wired through a switch on the fan belt tensioner, either directly or via a relay. Fan belt breaks, engine shuts down, full stop, no chance of fried engine from fan belt failure. You might ought to look into that. BTW, prolly the best engine for your climate, damn near bullet proof, never needs antifreeze/coolant, and if the top end is tight they light up fairly well in the cold.

I will surely investigate this. Or a Murphy switch for voltage.. something to prevent this from happening again.

I kind of like this design, the more i read about it being made to be in tanks and fixed on the fly while being shelled by Sherman's, Shiza. I do believe this loader has been an absolute trooper for these guys. Even with its severe lack of maintenance. That being said the owner mentioned he maybe only has 30-40hr on it since purchased. Previous history unknown, but from the looks of everything else on this machine, shes been rode hard and put away wet.

 

[Reverse-engineer867]

Do those intake ports look dusty or is it my imagination? I’ve never seen an exhaust leak like that on an air-cooled deutz

guaranteed this engine has a long history of being dusted out, and probably has never been properly serviced tbh. The ports are clean and dry, the intake manifold runners are dry as well. I’m just torn on should I just order up a complete cylinder kit or maybe 2 to have a spare, as you mentioned I will order new jug studs and head bolts for this, is their anything else to look at while having it pulled down far enough to replace piston packs to be looking at?

 

[56wrench]

You need to make sure you have extra shims for the barrels to use when you check the crown clearance. The fastest procedure is to install extra shims and then cut the extra ones and remove them as required after checking the crown clearance