Late model truck totalled

[suladas]

It's a no brainer that new trucks under warranty where you just squirt some grease in them & maybe put a tire or 2 on them once in a while is way more efficient than an old truck that you're spending every Saturday and sometimes a night or 2 during the week working on. My log truck payments are 4000 bucks a piece and and they get washed fueled greased and go. When they hit 5 years old I will trade them in. All of this crap about new trucks breaking down all the time is an old wivestale. If that is the case those guys were probably still washing their clothes on a buckboard.
I don't know about you guys but there's no way you can have an old truck that you're making a $1000 month payment on and have it come out cheaper to operate per month than a brand new one where the payment is $4000.

In many cases yes, but I raise you my dads 2015 international. In 90,000 miles it's needed a EGR and turbo (warranty), and the second time another EGR and head rebuild (not warranty $21000 bill), a few months in the shop for those, 3 tows (had to pay for 2 of them) and numerous non start issues due to dealer not finding broken part on starter that would only engage sometimes, and many many other issues and many times the dealer charging a few hours labor here and there saying something stupid isn't warranty.

Bought a brand new truck and sold the 89 to get something "more reliable" and honestly it wasn't it did see more miles then the old one, but in 6 years the 89 never needed a tow and only really broke down once when the starter went, the 2015 broke down about 5 times and was towed 3 times. Instead of problems you could fix yourself it was sitting at the dealer who wasn't capable of putting washer fluid in, never mind fixing it and it came with a nice payment of over $4000 and way higher insurance compared to a truck that cost $15000 and paid for itself the first summer. Oh and it burns WAY more fuel then the old truck, like a disturbing amount. While it is the odd truck out and everyone knows the maxxforce is absolute garbage, there is plenty of newer trucks out there far less reliable then the old ones.

For a O/O in the truck everyday it has to be reliable and over a certain age doesn't make sense unless you have a good setup for someone to wrench on it, but I wonder for a fleet, would it be cheaper and better to own an extra truck per every say 10 as a spare and run older and have a mechanic who does the repairs, assuming the company only ran local, if you're going across north america that's not going to work.

Well I wouldn't agree looking at it month by month makes the most sense. You got to compare over a number of years total what the difference in cost is, if the new truck has a 8 year loan drawn out compared to a old one that's only 3, the older one is going to be more expensive to start but get cheaper by the end when the payment is gone. But obviously there is a age tipping point where it makes more sense to get rid of the truck and it's better suited to a owner who only runs it a few days a week.

 

[suladas]

Which labor hours makes you the most money? Working on a piece of iron or working on your service truck?

The conundrum is your truck is a requirement to earn a living like a track hoe is to earn mine. I know that I can make more money per hour running that machine then I could ever save wrenching on it myself. The hard part is figuring your business costs and making the right the decision - the cost to run older iron and work on it or buy new and have a payment or a larger payment.

Joys of small business ownership right?

What would the numbers be if you have older stuff and had a good mechanic who did the work on it when it already wasn't working so it was still making the same money? One advantage of older stuff is, if things slow down it's not hurting as bad to sit (could lose a fortune if you had to unload a new piece if it got slow), you can fill your time wrenching on it if you didn't have any work for it anyway, you can also own more equipment and avoid renting. Also less work to have to collect payment on, chance of not getting paid, etc.

But like everything else no solution is perfect for everyone. I have 4 pieces of equipment for just myself so older paid for iron makes more sense and wrench on it myself. In 4.5 years with my bigger hoe, it's actually broken down 3 times in which I had to stop a job, 2 for hoses once for a water pump, a hose could just as easily blow on a 2-3 year old machine and frankly that rarity of a breakdown it doesn't bother me one bit. I mean I wouldn't own a 20 year old hoe with 20,000 hours on it to try and make money, but a 2008 with 9500 hours on it to me is still "fairly new" and it's been dahm reliable IMO.

 

[Birken Vogt]

I disagree about them breaking down all the time. Maybe the duty cycle is the difference. If you get out on the open highway and heat them up. But if you are making lots of short runs and idling a lot maybe that is what makes them junk. We did not have a lot of problems with the T300 chassis at all. Just the lousy emissions engines.

Also the way I see it, if you are a mechanic, you can tolerate a lot more aged truck than the average joe. Because you can recognize problems early and turn a bolt without having to take it anywhere.

I just don't see what is to be afraid of on an older T300 with reasonable miles. And in a mechanic service truck, at least the way I work, you are not going to rack up a lot more miles on it. But I stay close to home, I like to sleep in my own bed and I like to be home at a reasonable hour. And I do have the same problem as everyone, I have a hard time saying no.

 

[DMiller]

Truck I drive is a 2016 its twin is a year older and both less than 400,000miles. Vocational, short runs then light to excessively heavy loads mine has had four DPF units only two in warranty, sensors galore only half in warranty. Not had a payment in four years and even as were in great shape should have been GONE then. New Petes and Star tractors pulling end dumps, regardless time at 460-500,000 are Sold or traded. Those that hit a five year mark similarly GONE. If cannot keep repaired under warranty are not profitable. BTW, one wreck that compromises any emissions system voids the warranty accorded the tech rep for Cummins in these(X15s).
Hard to make decent continuing profit margins rolling equipment just paid off.

 

[CM1995]

What would the numbers be if you have older stuff and had a good mechanic who did the work on it when it already wasn't working so it was still making the same money?

How much does that good mechanic and parts cost?

Hence the conundrum.

 

[Birken Vogt]

Truck I drive is a 2016 its twin is a year older and both less than 400,000miles. Vocational, short runs then light to excessively heavy loads mine has had four DPF units only two in warranty, sensors galore only half in warranty. Not had a payment in four years and even as were in great shape should have been GONE then. New Petes and Star tractors pulling end dumps, regardless time at 460-500,000 are Sold or traded. Those that hit a five year mark similarly GONE.

Seems like that is the modern way nowadays, but an O/O with a service truck cannot swap the chassis out every 5 years like a simple semi - too custom. Or maybe he can? Uncharted territory.

BTW, one wreck that compromises any emissions system voids the warranty accorded the tech rep for Cummins in these(X15s).

That sounds to me like the company trying anything they can to get out of paying warranty on their horrible Rube Goldberg systems.

Hard to make decent continuing profit margins rolling equipment just paid off.

We are kind of in a donut hole right now, I think - older emissions trucks that a small guy can afford are the early lemon emissions models. Pre-emissions stuff is almost too old. More up-to-date stuff is still too new to afford. Maybe in another 5 years a 2020 truck will be affordable to a small guy and the emissions not so bad as a 2010 model is now. But I am not holding my breath for that.

 

[Hallback]

There is one big thing you guys are missing when you're comparing 7 year old trucks to current late model trucks. Tier 4 final, the last iteration of them came out in 2018 and newer.. The amount of failures, breakdowns and issues with those 2018 & newer are miniscule compared to the 2009 through 2017 model gear. Not to mention a 2015 truck is still 7 years old and if driven with any amount of regularity it will have between a 1/2 million and 700000 miles easily.

 

[CM1995]

We are kind of in a donut hole right now, I think - older emissions trucks that a small guy can afford are the early lemon emissions models. Pre-emissions stuff is almost too old. More up-to-date stuff is still too new to afford. Maybe in another 5 years a 2020 truck will be affordable to a small guy and the emissions not so bad as a 2010 model is now. But I am not holding my breath for that.

Think that is exactly where we are. The new vs old truck/equipment calculation is and always will be the small businessman's difficult decision. The government mandated emissions equipment has only made that decision harder.

 

[Birken Vogt]

There is one big thing you guys are missing when you're comparing 7 year old trucks to current late model trucks. Tier 4 final, the last iteration of them came out in 2018 and newer.. The amount of failures, breakdowns and issues with those 2018 & newer are miniscule compared to the 2009 through 2017 model gear.

I do not know anything about this. Can you elaborate? I thought everything 2010 and newer was T4F and that was that, and any improvements have been incremental.

Not to mention a 2015 truck is still 7 years old and if driven with any amount of regularity it will have between a 1/2 million and 700000 miles easily.

A T300 service truck around here does not get anywhere near that kind of mileage. I would be surprised to see 400,000 on one 20 years old. There aren't any roads long enough to get anywhere like that. But maybe it is different elsewhere.

 

[Truck Shop]

2015 truck is still 7 years old and if driven with any amount of regularity it will have between a 1/2 million and 700000 miles easily.

Exactly-When it comes to on road trucks mainly over the road-if a driver isn't cracking 150,000 miles
a year-instead of setting on his a$$ in the truck he's setting on his a$$ at home. In 7 years it should
have a million miles on it. Two of our W900L's went into service just before christmas, a little over
50,000 miles on them.

 

[Mike L]

I do not know anything about this. Can you elaborate? I thought everything 2010 and newer was T4F and that was that, and any improvements have been incremental.

T4i came in around 2008 and didn’t use DEF. That is where most of the horror stories come from. T4Final came in around 2016-17? That uses DEF fluid and while it has some problems it is way better than t4i. Also the system has been around long enough for mechanics to get a grasp on it and learn a few tricks. I’ve personally only worked on Cummins and Volvo CE regen issues. I could write a book on some of the issues we had to work through and learn.

A T300 service truck around here does not get anywhere near that kind of mileage. I would be surprised to see 400,000 on one 20 years old. There aren't any roads long enough to get anywhere like that. But maybe it is different elsewhere.

T4i came in around 2008 and didn’t use DEF. That is where most of the horror stories come from. T4Final came in around 2016-17? That uses DEF fluid and while it has some problems it is way better than t4i. Also the system has been around long enough for mechanics to get a grasp on it and learn a few tricks. I’ve personally only worked on Cummins and Volvo CE regen issues. I could write a book on some of the issues we had to work through and learn
My T3 has 200k on it. It was a Deere service truck in its first life. When I first went in the field working for Volvo CE it was 2016 and I was given a 2009 T370 with 300k on it. Regen nightmare. Truck would go into limp mode, I’d call my shop foreman and tell him. His usual response was “ you’re a field tech, figure it out” and hang up the phone. A man can learn a lot when he’s just trying to get home. Then I was upgraded to a 2018 peterbilt 337 with T4F. I ran it 60k and the only thing I did was keep the DEF tank full.

 

[Hallback]

The key components to a trouble free system are
Run them hard. Get them up to temp.
Clean DEF & change your DEF filter every other service.
Keep the tank full (don't let it sit for extended periods with under 3/4 tank)
If you have a DEF issue, check the heater & filter first.
We have 60k hours on T4F gear/trucks and have had two issues. One pump went bad (mechanic wasn't changing DEF filter at services) and a DEF heater went out (3 weeks under freezing and operator was using auto shutoff leaving key on.)

 

[DMiller]

Vocational Units do not always have the ability to perform as noted, Dump Trucks, Mixer Trucks, even Ag or Construction Off Road machines with DPF and SCR systems cannot always perform to the Intended design of DEF Equipment on Tier Four applications. Leads to excess Down time, Loss of machines and or operators, Sudden Failure instances requiring Tow or debilitating time pressure machinery(again Mixers). Know of Five mixers of just One company lost drums due to mix solidification due to Immediate Shut Down of newer machines(Less than three years old) where the System was never intended as a true Functional for these Vocational applications.

AG Tractors here end up back on dealer yards unable to Regen, lack of spare parts in inventory due to High Cost to that dealer until a Warranty is Paid is another issue. Electronics malfunctions are costing many AG and Construction dealers here real moneys as machines that could be out for rental are out as Warranty replacements and the Manufacturer is not as liberal in expense recoveries. T4 generators are now beginning to see similar issues, our Local Hospital had their unit replaced one as was nearing 20 years age and two for not being 'Environmentally Friendly' as per our local Activists pressure. The New unit failed on a auto start due to the DPF choking out or sensor failed(Never released by the vendor) was in a time of necessity not a routine start and fast idle as required monthly, scared the local authorities where they are considering replacement yet again with a USED Non T4 SCR DPF unit. Replacement by T4 unit was three years ago.

 

[Birken Vogt]

T4i came in around 2008 and didn’t use DEF. That is where most of the horror stories come from. T4Final came in around 2016-17? That uses DEF fluid and while it has some problems it is way better than t4i.

That's my confusion, around here DEF came on trucks in 2011 or so, and there have not been any major changes since that I could tell.

 

[4x4ford]

Biggest issue I’ve found has been having parts changers not actual mechanics any more company terminal I work out of has a shop full of them the younger guys who actually wanted to learn the shop foreman ran off as they threatened his job because they wanted to learn to keep the work in-house rather than farming anything other than basics out to the dealer

 

[Truck Shop]

Many have dropped the 1 box. Biggest problem is keeping the exhaust temp up, Idling
is a killer. Running the engine to operate a hydraulic system {because that's the way it is}
not enough exhaust temp.

 

[Crummy]

I have one friend that does specialized heavy and wind power, going in & out of the ports and California nothing is over 3 years old, dealer service only is his thing. Another does mid-west flat, '99 Pete immaculately maintained and likes not having to run ELD (for now) and his simpler truck that he can work on is a plus to him.
Both make good money, both are happy.
To each their own.

 

[Old Doug]

It's a no brainer that new trucks under warranty where you just squirt some grease in them & maybe put a tire or 2 on them once in a while is way more efficient than an old truck that you're spending every Saturday and sometimes a night or 2 during the week working on. My log truck payments are 4000 bucks a piece and and they get washed fueled greased and go. When they hit 5 years old I will trade them in. All of this crap about new trucks breaking down all the time is an old wivestale. If that is the case those guys were probably still washing their clothes on a buckboard.
I don't know about you guys but there's no way you can have an old truck that you're making a $1000 month payment on and have it come out cheaper to operate per month than a brand new one where the payment is $4000.

What brand of trucks do you have ? I did think like you do but there is always a truck or 2 that is a problem and with all the junk they have on them now its happens more often. How long have you been in trucking?

 

[John C.]

It seems that the load factor on the engines, particularly in the light use seen in utility work, has been the unsolvable problem for the engineering departments that designed this mess. I've heard of a few municipalities changing out diesel power for gasoline or other fuel simply because the unit was required to sit at idle for long periods of time. Diesels would pack up with soot and shut down. The use of DEF helped because firing temps could be increased without the increasing the formation of NOX. There are times that even machines normally used in heavy duty operations have to sit at idle.

I did an inspection last week on a machine where I had the front in the air held on the hydraulics. I do not shut down engines when there is weight in the air that might fall through some kind of failure. What I didn't know was that the manufacturer made that decision for me. The computer shut down the engine while I was doing some measuring. I'm sure the auto shutdown could be disabled if one could find where in the black hole of a diagnostics menu that function was located. The point though is that I wasn't aware that it was there and there was no indication of it being active on the monitor.

The emergency generator sets supporting a hospital, the bucket truck holding a lineman rehanging a power line, the excavator that has to sit running while men are working in the trench laying pipe or repairing electrical and communications lines. So at what point does this emissions stuff become a safety issue for those who have to depend on a running engine? At what point does the supposed benefits to those people who "could" be harmed over a lifetime outweigh the safety of those actually maintaining the systems that keep people alive in the present moment?

 

[Birken Vogt]

They have mathematical models for who "could" be harmed by PM and NOx emissions. The regulators treat that as gospel even though there are thousands of assumptions. They have no such models for people injured or put out of business and the resulting poverty effects. So that gets ignored.