1. Thank you for visiting HeavyEquipmentForums.com! Our objective is to provide industry professionals a place to gather to exchange questions, answers and ideas. We welcome you to register using the "Register" icon at the top of the page. We'd appreciate any help you can offer in spreading the word of our new site. The more members that join, the bigger resource for all to enjoy. Thank you!

Vote for D11R or a Komatsu 475

Discussion in 'Dozers' started by 9420pullpan, Nov 18, 2006.

  1. 9420pullpan

    9420pullpan Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2005
    Messages:
    1,162
    Location:
    Central PA
    im not sure how to set up a voting table but i would like to who likes what and if they have ran both etc
     
  2. CascadeScaper

    CascadeScaper Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2005
    Messages:
    1,162
    Occupation:
    2nd year Operating Engineer Apprentice
    Location:
    Lynnwood, WA
    I'd pretty much run either of them :bouncegri
     
  3. Mass-X

    Mass-X Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2006
    Messages:
    167
    Location:
    CA
    I've spent around 3,000 hours in three different D11's (two R's and and N). And just shy of 1,000 hours in a 475. Altogether I have thousands of hours in Komatsu as well as Cat dozers and have formed a few opinions.

    From a standpoint of simply performance of the machine. I think the Cat wins, but not by a large margin. The D11 feels more powerful to me than the 475. For ripping, I like the way the Komatsu ripper feels to me, it seems to curl a little further which I feel works better, but the D11 makes up for it with the additional power.

    I also prefer the D11's blade for hogging large amounts of material. With the taller, narrower blade of the D11, in a slot a few feet deep, more material is rolled directly over itself and back in front of the machine. Whereas in the Komatsu, more material is lost out the sides of your slot. It may not seem like much. But when the two are next to each other (with equally experienced operators) the Cat will slowly stock more material than the Komatsu.

    When roughing in roads to within a few tenths I prefer the Komatsu. Overall, Komatsu's seem (to me) to be easier to grade in. And the wider blade allows for one or two less passes to get your sub grade finished.

    The Komatsu dozers definitely ride smoother due to the K-Bogie Undercarriage system. It's not something you notice too much while pushing, but when backing up long cuts or tracking from one place to another, the Komatsu feels better. This may also be why they seem easier to grade in.

    It seems to me that the little things are what really separate the two machines. Dowtime on Komatsu dozers always seems to be higher than Cat's. For example, the outfit I work for has a Komatsu 375 with just over 8500 frame hours, and it's on it's third engine. The machine will routinely break. Since May we've moved more than 3 million yards of material, and the 375 sat out July thru early September when we really needed it (hydraulic pumps, steering, numerous engine and track problems, etc). With 8,500 hours, the machine is beat to death.

    While that may be the extreme, overall Cat's spend more time working than Komatsu's. I personally feel that a Cat dozer should be traded in after 8,000 hours in the rock they work in here in Utah. While most of Komatsu's I've been in are in sorry shape around 5,000 hours.

    Numerous mechanics have expressed a preference for working on Cat dozers in contrast to Komatsu. For example, a simple wiring fix on a Cat may take 30-45 minutes. While the exact same fix on a Komatsu requires removing the floor of the cab, unscrewing a few things to get them out of the way, and then you can access the wires. It translates into a lot more time spent repairing the Komatsu than the Cat.

    Ground clearance is a problem for Komatsu's as well. All of the bigger (275+) dozers we're currently running have completely caved in belly pans. They just don't sit very high off the ground and if any operator is careless and tries to straddle a windrow (again, lots of rock around here) it's a sure way to beat the belly pans right up into the machine which spells to lots of downtime and expensive fixes.

    One of the Komatsu 275's we're running has an electrical problem that prevents the blade from tilting side/side (the wires to the thumb toggle switch are broken). Because of this, the blade only tilts to the right. To get it to tilt left, the blade has to be pitched completely forward, but it will then not pitch right. To fix this, the belly pans have to be pulled and about 5-6 hours of re-wiring are needed. Therein lies the problem; the belly pans are so caved in that they need to be removed with a cutting torch and then (ideally) replaced: a couple days of repairs. We can't afford the downtime so the operator gets to wear his right hand out toying with his blade all day.

    I like the operator station of the Cat's a little more, better visibility, especially of the ripper. The air conditioners work better in Cat's. The door handles hold up better and overall the controls stay tighter longer. I've found that Komatsu controls start to feel sloppy 1,500-2,000 hours earlier than Cat's.

    While you may save money with the Komatsu's upfront, the Cat's win in the long run. And for big, mass production work, the D11 beats out the Komatsu 475, especially in the long run.
     
  4. 9420pullpan

    9420pullpan Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2005
    Messages:
    1,162
    Location:
    Central PA
    wow that was what i was looking for. i dont understand why companies that want to save up front but dont look further down the road
     
  5. Steve Frazier

    Steve Frazier Founder

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2003
    Messages:
    5,556
    Location:
    LaGrangeville, N.Y.
    How does Komatsu's parts delivery compare to Cat's overnight guarantee?
     
  6. Mass-X

    Mass-X Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2006
    Messages:
    167
    Location:
    CA
    I had to take a few deep breaths to reply to that question in a calm, collected matter.

    When dealing with the most common Komatsu machines, excavators up to PC 600, dozers up to 155, etc., Komatsu is pretty good about having parts delivered quickly. On the bigger machines, I've seen waits as long as 5 weeks.

    I like Komatsu equipment, I like their parts and service department; but Caterpillar still wins.
     
  7. Countryboy

    Countryboy Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2006
    Messages:
    3,276
    Occupation:
    Load Out Tech. / Heavy Equipment Operator / Locomo
    Location:
    Georgia
    Same feelings here. Yancy Cat does a great job keeping our equipment going. Komatsu leaves much to be desired:rolleyes: :sleeping .
     
  8. Dozer575

    Dozer575 Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2007
    Messages:
    274
    Occupation:
    Machinist and occasional pt Dozer oper
    Location:
    Seattle, wa
    Mas-x
    What state or country are those 275 large dozers in?
    Do you think maybe the reason the Komatsu's break more is because the mechanics just don't like them and haphazzardly repair them?
     
  9. Deas Plant

    Deas Plant Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2006
    Messages:
    1,533
    Location:
    Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia
    Why don't you give up?????????

    Hi, Dozer575.
    You've just read the 'voice' of experience speaking in print. They are telling you excatly the same things that I have been telling for the last 2 days. Kummagutsas just don't stack up in the long run. I acknowledge that they are nice machines to run - - when new. Trouble is they lose their 'new' a little quicker than the equivalent Cat machines.

    You've landed here with one HUGE Kummagutsa bias and put up a lot of posts in a very short time trying to convince people of the veracity of YOUR 'religion'. Now you're having a little trouble accepting the message from the people who really do know that Kummagutsa IS second best in the long run. Your bias is NOT my problem or the problem of anybody else on this or any other board. It is something you have to deal with or live with. And we also don't HAVE to answer your biased posts. The last few I have answered out of a desire to see the facts aired. That is finished. I will still answer any of your sensible requests for information that I can but from here on I'll just ignore any biased posts that you put up.

    May I suggest that you take your blinders off - - - or just wander off into the sunset and live in your own little fairytale. It's great to see passion but even greater to see passion about something worth being passionate about. I'm sorry but Kummagutsas just don't stack up that high in my book. And their service even less so.

    Best of luck, whichever way you choose to go
     
  10. Steve Frazier

    Steve Frazier Founder

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2003
    Messages:
    5,556
    Location:
    LaGrangeville, N.Y.
    Dozer575, everyone is entitled to an opinion, and all we ask here at HEF is that you back up any claims you make with hard facts. If you review our rules here we don't allow flaming in any form. If you feel as strongly as you do about Komatsu, you must have a reason or two and we'd like to hear them.

    I must note however, that we'll never ask a member to leave due to an opposing opinion.
     
  11. Dozer575

    Dozer575 Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2007
    Messages:
    274
    Occupation:
    Machinist and occasional pt Dozer oper
    Location:
    Seattle, wa
    http://www.komatsuamerica.com/MiningJobStory1.asp

    Lots of mines pefer Komatsu Dozers. Personally I feel it is a stability issue.
    I have seen alot of photos of those Cat triads rolled over. I remember them being quite tipsy on there sides.

    Its not a dozer but just proves the big K can handle it.
    http://www.miningreview.com/archive/031/08_1.htm

    http://www.komatsu.com/CompanyInfo/press/2007011613072322452.html
    In the address above it doesn't mention those D11's, or D10's but does mention D375's. You asked for proof. I worked with a D375 for some years and considering how beat up they where and how they kept going it was very impressive.


    More hard proof, Komatsu wins over that over rated american dozer.
    http://www.constructionequipmentgui...omatsu Equipment Ignites New Nevada Gold Rush

    Now why would they buy an inferior dozer?
    http://www.minefinders.com/News/january18,2007.html
    Maybe they know something you don't?

    The hard proof is in the purchases of Komatsu dozers, by large mines that don't want junk that has to be constantly worked on.
     
  12. Deas Plant

    Deas Plant Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2006
    Messages:
    1,533
    Location:
    Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia
    We Want HARD Evidence.

    Hi, Dozer575.
    Steve said 'hard' evidence. You have given five, that is a whole F-I-V-E, links to news articles about mines/companies that have bought Kummagutsa gear and you want to claim that as 'HARD' proof of your 'religion'.

    I wonder how many artciles there might be out there about companies/mines that bought a whole slew of Cat gear? My bet is a LOT more than there is about Kummagutsa gear sales but I have better things to do than waste my time looking for them when I KNOW the answer.

    I'll believe you when you post the TOTAL SALES FIGURES, world-wide for BOTH Cat and Kummagutsa for all new plant sold to the mining and oil industries for the 2005/2006 financial year, IF they show that Kummagutsa is the CLEAR winner - - - which they won't.

    Wanna take it on?????????? C-mon, PROVE your point.

    Over to you.
     
  13. Squizzy246B

    Squizzy246B Administrator

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2005
    Messages:
    3,388
    Occupation:
    Digger Driver
    Location:
    Perth, Western Australia
    I primarily come to this forum to "gauge" practices and equipment in this industry. (aside from clowning around) I'm a very small operation but we are looking to expand. To that end I probably give a little more salt to those owner operators on this forum...small guys like me...or have been like me and have now got bigger...Nac, I think is a classic example(no offense to heaps of others thats just who come to mind first:eek: ).

    Anyways, I'm always on the look out for those beating a drum. I guess I need to know where they are coming from in order to add some worth to their comments. Kaiser (KSSS) is a good example...he likes his CASE machinery, lets us know about it...but most importantly...he puts his machinery money where his mouth is. I can't ask more than that and I respect his opinion.

    Being an Owner Operator ain't everything...lets face it, when it comes to multi-million dollar machinery most of us can't even dream of owning these machines. Its then worth listening to unbiased, experienced operators who can pass on their knowledge.

    Case in point, despite having been in and out of one of limestone quarries numerous times I finally requested a tour and made the time to attend. I got to talk to their oldest and most experienced dozer operator. He drives a D10 that has had two in-frames and has 28,000 hrs on the clock. About the sum of his answers to my questions was "it ain't pretty but it gets the job done, when the others are aving a rest" as he points his thumb in the general direction of the repair workshop. I wont tell you what is in the workshop and the subject of a 4 year legal battle but I took that operator's comments as well qualified comment.

    At a recent industry conference a financier gave a speech about how you are married to your wife/husband and not your machine.....I know...its hard to accept...:rolleyes: ... but blind brand loyalty has no part in effective business decisions. I'm far from being a "Cat Man"...but I know what I'm getting with Cat...and thats the best parts support in the world. Dealers of all makes need a good Kick in the rear from time to time but manufacturer's like Cat don't "rest on their laurels" (although the dealer might). I have recently purchased a Yanmar mini....the machine is excellent...but the dealer is letting the show down.... I'm not unhappy but maybe I should have gone with the Hitachi:confused:

    So when you blow in here beating your drum....go for it......but some of the comments I have read lately make me wonder if there is not some vested interest or ulterior motive at heart.

    More Dozer talk please:cool2

    You can bet your bottom dollar there is lots of people (who do have some vested interest) following this thread....they are called "Guests":my2c :thumbsup
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2007
  14. Wulf

    Wulf Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    584
    Location:
    Canada
    Regarding the large mining dozer market... how I see it currently is that the larger worldwide mining groups will look at their mining operations and determine that they need x # of dozers for x # of years/operating hours and how much can Cattagusta or Kummagusta guarantee their machine availability and how much they can guarantee their operating cost per hour.

    Once locked in to those type of contracts those manufacturers and/or their dealers will have to meet their contractual obligation irrespective of whether the sprocket is elevated or conventional and whether the operators enjoy running the machine or not.

    Kind of takes the fun out of things but the bean-counters will win eventually when they base it on initial cost, machine availability, parts pricing and eventually calculate operating cost per hour.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2007
  15. Dozer575

    Dozer575 Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2007
    Messages:
    274
    Occupation:
    Machinist and occasional pt Dozer oper
    Location:
    Seattle, wa
    Squizzy, well said.
    On some machinery I have no brand loyalty. It is only when pure stupidity enters the engineering and design departments that I take sides.
    There are so many times that I have seen american manufactures regress when it comes to designing a product. And when cat fooled with a decent design like they are now slowly moving back to on mid size dozers, specifically the standard oval track layout. I had to move on. If you go back to the days of the D9H and the D355 and study the construction of both those machines, it should become apparent which one is built stronger and better, even the simple things like the seat. The story about the D10 is a good one, I would take it that machine was pretty old, like maybe before the electronics age? That explains it all. Nowdays all it takes is a bad wire a crapped out transister or connector and a multi thousand dollar tractor is down for the count. I would like to know what was in the shop and why?
    And 4 year legal battle? Gosh what keeps going wrong?
     
  16. Tigerotor77W

    Tigerotor77W Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2004
    Messages:
    1,014
    Occupation:
    Engineer
    Location:
    Michigan
    Just a reference: in here, http://www.minefinders.com/News/january18,2007.html, the author notes that the D61 is a Cat D8 equivalent and the D155 a D6 equivalent... other way around.

    I'm also not surprised that any of this is transpiring -- Cat's dozer production is booked out a ways...
     
  17. biggixxerjim

    biggixxerjim Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2007
    Messages:
    446
    Location:
    New Jerz
    What keeps going wrong is they never sell the damn thing.

    I am somewhat of a Cat loyalist, but there are other good machines made as well for some markets, for one, I think I would rather have a new Deere RTH than a cat. I think that deere makes a better machine in that field. Dozers, T-Hoes, pans, ADT's....... Cat wins hands down. No one else even coes close.

    And second the reason that Cat went with the Oval track (I believe, from an operators standpoint,) is to have a slightly larger dozer than the D5 with a PAT blade that is better at transversing slopes than a high track, making grade slopes and such less nerve ratttling. They still offer a High track D4 and up, so you know they havent "faced the facts" and ditched a proven system. They have just offered more choices for application.

    I recently ran a Deere 850J LGP, and man did that thing kick ass!!!! Nice 36" wide pads, PAT blade, tons of weight and power. When it comes to grading out thousands of yards of topsoil like I was, I think I'll take the Deere. Making large cuts? Ill take a high track.:my2c
     
  18. Steve Frazier

    Steve Frazier Founder

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2003
    Messages:
    5,556
    Location:
    LaGrangeville, N.Y.
    Here's the thing Dozer575, in all the posts you've made touting Komatsu, you've made only 2 short references to actual seat time in the machine and no reference to ever running a Cat. So just what are your qualifications to making the statements that you have? Do you have enough time in both machines to make a fair comparison?

    As has been stated, anyone here can do a search of any brand machine and find both positive and negative articles on them. We'd prefer to hear about personal experiences and so far you've only touched on that fleetingly. Posting a link to a Komatsu web site to support your statements is actually pretty comical.

    I'm somewhat loyal to Cat, I've had excellent service from both the machine and the dealer who is only 10 minutes away. I've never run a Komatsu so I can't say anything about it positive or negative, but I compared Case, J/D and N/H when buying and found Cat best suited my needs. I am not close minded however, and if another company has come out with a machine that will do a better job than my Cat, I'd like to hear about it. So far you've offered nothing to support your claims.

    What I did find interesting is in the last link you provided about the operation in Mexico. In that article they found the need to inform the public which Cat machine the Komatsu listed would compare to. That in itself says a lot about the mark that is to be compared to.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2007
  19. Lashlander

    Lashlander Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2007
    Messages:
    1,226
    Location:
    Kodiak Ak.
    :IMO there's a troll loose. He's just tryin to :stirthepot then when :shf he will be gone. If not he can believe what he wants, I don't think anyone here is going to change his mind.:deadhorse
     
  20. Dozer575

    Dozer575 Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2007
    Messages:
    274
    Occupation:
    Machinist and occasional pt Dozer oper
    Location:
    Seattle, wa
    I thought that there was not suppost to be people name calling etc?
    When ever someone posts facts that goof up a belief in a certain brand of machine, then he or she is named a this or a that? And if that person jokes a bit, they are also named a this or that? I don't understand.