Trimble or Topcon?

[SeaMac]

What I have heard from both Trimble and Topcon as well as a few equipment manufacturers, it won't be too long until the antenna's are gone altogether. Seems the industry is actually heading towards full-automation and full-autonomy, meaning in 20 or 30 years their won't be Operators.

CAT, Volvo and Liebherr reps have told me they're working towards complete machine integration controlled by both US and Russian GPS with millimeter precision and the mast mounted antenna's will be a thing of the past. The antenna's will be atop the cab and barely visible. It appears that US and Russian military's are improving their systems to the point where the private sector will soon have access to what they consider "old" technology. This same old technology allows for GPS guidance of missles and bombs and affords pinpoint accuracy on delivery.

You'll no longer need grade stakes for anything, Dozers, Wheel Loaders, Excavators will all know where they are and what they need to do. Yes, I know they can do this now but not to the degree that's coming. There'll come a time just before full-autonomy when Operator's sit in a Command Center and remotely control all machines. That should be very interesting...

 

[SeaMac]

Just an add-on to my original post. The systems that are in development and coming soon to a jobsite near you will be 2, 3, and 4-axis systems which can determine a machines location and attitude with absolute precision and accuracy. The sensors being developed are wireless and either Radio Frequency Identification (RFid) or BlueTooth Technology (BTT) which will eliminate wiring altogether and they will be hardened or armoroed to deal with the rigors of heavy equipment applications. Since LCD screens are becoming more and more prevalent in machines there will come a time when all necessary information will be displayed in one location, and it is rumored that Heads Up Displays (HUD) will be coming too.

What I have heard from both Trimble and Topcon as well as a few equipment manufacturers, it won't be too long until the antenna's are gone altogether. Seems the industry is actually heading towards full-automation and full-autonomy, meaning in 20 or 30 years their won't be Operators.

CAT, Volvo and Liebherr reps have told me they're working towards complete machine integration controlled by both US and Russian GPS with millimeter precision and the mast mounted antenna's will be a thing of the past. The antenna's will be atop the cab and barely visible. It appears that US and Russian military's are improving their systems to the point where the private sector will soon have access to what they consider "old" technology. This same old technology allows for GPS guidance of missles and bombs and affords pinpoint accuracy on delivery.

You'll no longer need grade stakes for anything, Dozers, Wheel Loaders, Excavators will all know where they are and what they need to do. Yes, I know they can do this now but not to the degree that's coming. There'll come a time just before full-autonomy when Operator's sit in a Command Center and remotely control all machines. That should be very interesting...

 

[t3chw00di]

Trimble has just released their firmware version 12.2 with grade max for dozers that gives you more than twice calcultion speed of glonass signals in the antennas which gives you better speeds and grading capabilitys than 3dmc2 just by adding software instead of adding extra sencors and other gadgets.
this new software also gives yoy 5 adjustable settings that you can adjust while you are grading in automatic mode without any delay in speed

Have you used version 12.2? I'm eagerly waiting to try it, but the only CB460 (required for 12.2) we have is in a D6T that's down with engine problems right now. All the others are CB430's.

 

[grunk36]

Have you used version 12.2? I'm eagerly waiting to try it, but the only CB460 (required for 12.2) we have is in a D6T that's down with engine problems right now. All the others are CB430's.

yes i have and it works incredible good you can set your valve speed while you are going in automatic so you can see imediate result and the valve speed has five different settings now over the older versions two
we are on our way to upgrade all the CB460 in denmark to this
and there is good functionality in it for excavators too

 

[vapor300]

you can set your valve speed while gradding in the 3dmc2 now, and 3dmc2 has 6 ways to change your valve speed, 2 for tilt and 4 for up and down. Topcon's system can fine grade to less then a tenth of speeds up to 11 mph! Trimble cannot, yet anyways

 

[Jack-shannon]

How much does the gcs900 cost to set up on a tractor and bucket? We used it on a bunker site on a hire buy option but we spent 40,000 in hire to the get hit with a qoute to buy it at $157,000 is this what it cost everyone or am I being completely ripped off?

 

[grunk36]

How much does the gcs900 cost to set up on a tractor and bucket? We used it on a bunker site on a hire buy option but we spent 40,000 in hire to the get hit with a qoute to buy it at $157,000 is this what it cost everyone or am I being completely ripped off?

what do you mean by "tractor and bucket" ? here in denmark we sell a complete 3D system for a excavator with dual antennas and modem for vrs and two way data for around 330000 danish kroner which is around 55000 usd and this includes basic operator training

 

[Jack-shannon]

Sorry were a small earthmoving company in Australia we were running trimbles gcs900 system on our scraper so the same system on a dozer or grader and I have seen it on a excavator and it looks the same but with different slope senses but as I said we received a qoute for the complete package being the scraper fully equipped with the gps unit, slope sense, display screen and a base station but yer I don't know if it should be costing 157,000 when the australian dollar is stronger the the US dollar right now? Your price I'm assuming is without a base station but still seems like you would be alot cheaper then what we are getting charged

 

[grunk36]

Sorry were a small earthmoving company in Australia we were running trimbles gcs900 system on our scraper so the same system on a dozer or grader and I have seen it on a excavator and it looks the same but with different slope senses but as I said we received a qoute for the complete package being the scraper fully equipped with the gps unit, slope sense, display screen and a base station but yer I don't know if it should be costing 157,000 when the australian dollar is stronger the the US dollar right now? Your price I'm assuming is without a base station but still seems like you would be alot cheaper then what we are getting charged

it seems you have got a high price,but again if your price is with a basestation it might be acceptable anyway.we would sell a dozer system for around 75000 usd and i think that would be the excact same system for a scraper with dual gps
our price without base station but with modem for receiving basecorrections from vrs(3G)

 

[t3chw00di]

I finally got to work with trimble gcs900 v12.2 on a new D6N we bought. Apart from originally hating D6N's over D6T's, I'll just let that part slide for now. So I'm at this job where we are building a cell for contaminated waste.There are quite a few of these being built in the oil rich regions of the world. So anyways, I'm running this new D6N and not sure if I'm liking it or not. I'm very fussy and very critical about almost anything. I usually run a D6T, but my boss' asked if I would try out this D6N since it would be our first and let them know what I thought. build a clay liner that is 1.1M thick in the cell. It has been undercut to this level last year when the project started, and then put on hold during the winter. During initial testing of the gps system, all goes according to spec. Our only complaint is the lack of cellular service in the area which pisses all of us off
OK, our initial surveys and gps are up to snuff, but then came a sidewinder.....
The engineer assigned to the site was a female and don't get me wrong......I have no problems with women, but this one seemed to be extra anal

So anyways back to the beginning of the post............
Here I was with a brand new install and I watched the SiTech installer do his job and talked to him brieflyj. Again, this was all before I really started to test the system. I worry about other companies that don't test their install's properly and end up being a way out. So being the anal **** that I am, I ask our surveyor on the job to set me up with a hub stake so I can check in to it and make sure I'm within specs. This hub will include the northing, easting, and elevation so I can acurately check the system's acuracy.It seems that most operators only check their verticals if they are in dispute, but never think of checking their horizontals which are equally important.
So hear I am sitting here in Alberta waiting for the press that put me here, and nothing is happenning.

 

[t3chw00di]

Sooooo.....I have no idea what I was thinking about in that last sentence... LOL
I think I past out about then in my drunken stupor.

Posting permissions say I may edit my posts, but I see no edit button. What am I missing?
.
So anyways, to continue.....
After one of many rain storms we've had, I decide to go and check in to that hub stake I got the surveyor to set up. I had him put it in a wide open spot where I can approach it from almost any direction. What I found is that my horizontals are indeed out to lunch. If I approach the stake facing either north or south, my northing is out by as much as 35cm and the easting is very close. If I approach it facing east or west, it's my easting that is out, but the northing is very close. I don't know which versions have this problem, but after that I tried a D6T with a cb430 box and version 11.4 and it had the same issue. For most jobs this won't make a difference, but if you are dozing towards the edge of a pad, it may tell you that the edge of your pad is slightly off etc. We reported the problem to SiTech and they are waiting to hear back from trimble.

Since then I have upgraded that dozer to version 12.3, but that issue hasn't been addressed.

On a brighter note, I do love the speed increase that came with the new versions. It is wonderful being able to go full throttle in second gear and not worry about the gps not reacting fast enough and gouging holes or start bouncing.
In fact I tried dozing in 3rd gear and for the most part it went pretty well. I wouldn't do that often, but it was just a few minute test for my own curiosity. I would definately encourage people to upgrade to 12.2 or newer if they can. It's unfortunately that the older cb430 box's are too slow for the new versions. SiTech is trying to get us to upgrade our cb430 box's to cb460's, but they want like $20k each :/

A few days ago one of our super's told me we're going to demo a JD 850K with a topcon gps system and he wanted me to run it, so I'm looking forward to that.
It'll be interesting to see which I end up liking the best. I think it will be trimble but I'm trying to go into it with an open mind. Not sure when it's going to happen yet. I'll report back here when it does.

 

[grunk36]

i have to ask you how you check the readings over the stake ??
do you just raise your blade and put it on top of the stake?? (this only works if you have installed a pitch sensor)
if you do not have a pict sensor you have to proceed like this
1.create a new plane high enough to clear the stake
2.put blade in outo mode and and approach the stake untill blade is right over it then go out and measure manually yo the stake and then check readings on screen

if you have pitch sensor it doesnt matter how you approach

glad to hear you too like the new grade max i was blown away in raunheim when we tested how it worked

Sooooo.....I have no idea what I was thinking about in that last sentence... LOL
I think I past out about then in my drunken stupor.

Posting permissions say I may edit my posts, but I see no edit button. What am I missing?
.
So anyways, to continue.....
After one of many rain storms we've had, I decide to go and check in to that hub stake I got the surveyor to set up. I had him put it in a wide open spot where I can approach it from almost any direction. What I found is that my horizontals are indeed out to lunch. If I approach the stake facing either north or south, my northing is out by as much as 35cm and the easting is very close. If I approach it facing east or west, it's my easting that is out, but the northing is very close. I don't know which versions have this problem, but after that I tried a D6T with a cb430 box and version 11.4 and it had the same issue. For most jobs this won't make a difference, but if you are dozing towards the edge of a pad, it may tell you that the edge of your pad is slightly off etc. We reported the problem to SiTech and they are waiting to hear back from trimble.

Since then I have upgraded that dozer to version 12.3, but that issue hasn't been addressed.

On a brighter note, I do love the speed increase that came with the new versions. It is wonderful being able to go full throttle in second gear and not worry about the gps not reacting fast enough and gouging holes or start bouncing.
In fact I tried dozing in 3rd gear and for the most part it went pretty well. I wouldn't do that often, but it was just a few minute test for my own curiosity. I would definately encourage people to upgrade to 12.2 or newer if they can. It's unfortunately that the older cb430 box's are too slow for the new versions. SiTech is trying to get us to upgrade our cb430 box's to cb460's, but they want like $20k each :/

A few days ago one of our super's told me we're going to demo a JD 850K with a topcon gps system and he wanted me to run it, so I'm looking forward to that.
It'll be interesting to see which I end up liking the best. I think it will be trimble but I'm trying to go into it with an open mind. Not sure when it's going to happen yet. I'll report back here when it does.

 

[JDOFMEMI]

t3chw00di

By your description, it seems your set up information may be off. You should verify the measurements from the antenna to the cutting edge.

 

[LaserGPSexpert]

I agree with the last post about the measurements in machine setup from antennae to blade edge. Another issue with GPS and this spot measurements friends is heading. If you have a single GPS and sit still for some time your machine will lose its idea of direction of travel " heading" and this will throw off NE coord's
Check it quick, only check it when you have moved forward onto the spot and do not reverse to get closer to the spot (benchmark) and always remember that I am the expert for GPS and Laser machine guidance, and all will be well and good in your job.

 

[brad.kirby]

I've used Topcon for 15 years and Trimble for one year and one year is all I needed on the Trimble product to know that Topcon is the superior product. Pros for Topcon 1. Topcon is more user friendly 2. You can utilize grid lines for staking big contour areas at any increments 3. Your cursor stays in the middle of the screen at all times 4. You can edit point descriptions, elevations, layers at any time 5. You can measure a topo shot for x amount of seconds to get a more accurate reading on elevation with out creating a point 6. Base is wireless just like rover 7. With Layers Topcon keeps a running total # of your individual utilities shots and remembers your descriptions in a drop down window of utilities with out having to type them in every time you take a different utility shot 8. Topcon rover uses the same files as the machine rovers 9. If your color blind or you have a problem seeing lighter colors like yellow you can change the color of your line work 10. The guidance method is more versatile 11. If you build a flat plane or sloping surface with your machine rover you will maintain your line work Trimble you will loose you map design, "not good"witch we all know that's a big deal 12. I love the layer system better than job files when all you have to do is uncheck or check a layer instead of loading different job files. Topcon only needs one antenna mask because their slope sensors are more advanced Than Trimbles that's why they have to sell you two masks their sensors can't keep up with the cross slope. If for some reason your not matching your slope side than until you figure it out just follow your smart (mask) side over than manually dial your slope to match each pass or just manaully run the slope side to match and there is always the sonar you can use in conjunction with your GPS antenna mask just saying. I've never had trouble selling my grade with Topcon rock or sub grade also try to build 2:1 ditches using two masks good luck. I hope that helps, when in doubt test them your self at least I gave you some features to compare

 

[Harry Comes]

I've used Topcon for 15 years and Trimble for one year and one year is all I needed on the Trimble product to know that Topcon is the superior product. Pros for Topcon
1. Topcon is more user friendly Machine control or rover? Trimble SCS900 software is much easier to learn than Topcon Pocket 3D

2. You can utilize grid lines for staking big contour areas at any increments [B]Why do you need grid lines when you have the design on the screen. You can select any feature line or contour in SCS900 and offset in any direction horizontally or vertically same with the machine control[/B]
3. Your cursor stays in the middle of the screen at all times you can pan and zoom anywhere on the screen in SCS900, then push one button and it will center and follow you. The machine system automatically centers you when you move
4. You can edit point descriptions, elevations, layers at any time. Same with Trimble SCS900
5. You can measure a topo shot for x amount of seconds to get a more accurate reading on elevation with out creating a point. This is called static measurement. if you click on the man icon you can pick static( timed shot) standing(normal topo) or moving (mount on atv/truck and will automatically collect topo shots at the interval you want. Why would you hant to take a topo shot and not save a record of the shot? This is your proof that you measured it
6. Base is wireless just like rover Trimble 985 base and rovers are self contained units with no external wires. They also have a wifi mode for use on sites instead of a "radio link" The only Trimble base that has wires is a 85x modular model that is normally used on sites with a permanent base that is left running on sites 24/7 for weeks at a time. Also Trimble units have removable batteries unlike Topcon Hiper lites that have internal batteries. Where they die, your day is done.
7. With Layers Topcon keeps a running total # of your individual utilities shots and remembers your descriptions in a drop down window of utilities with out having to type them in every time you take a different utility shot. Trimble SCS900 is the same way. you can also set up a feature code list with drop down descriptions, quick keys for most used descriptions, and advances descriptions such as when you are shooting asbuilts, and type inv (for a pipe or structiure) it will prompt you for size and type. This is completely customize able and you can have different feature code lists for different job types.
8. Topcon rover uses the same files as the machine rovers. The reason Trimble machines use different file types from the data collectors is that Trimble machines dynamically load the data as the machine is moving. It is constantly loading data in front of you and forgetting the data behind you. This gives the Trimble machines the ability to have MUCH larger files sizes that Topcon. It's fun when you are grading a roundabout with a Topcon dozer and the control box cannot load the complete roundabout file and the operator has to change designs 3/4 of the way around the road.
9. If your color blind or you have a problem seeing lighter colors like yellow you can change the color of your line work. Yes you are correct about this, but a good model maker wouldn't use light colors like yellow and cyan for major lines in a design. Also if you have black lines in Pocket 3D and change your background color to black, Topcon Pocket 3D isn't smart enough to turn the back lines in the design to different color. you have to manually change the color. You CAN change the bacground color in the Trimble CB460 control boxes.
10. The guidance method is more versatile. Again what are you referring to here? Machine Control or Stakeout with a rover?
11. If you build a flat plane or sloping surface with your machine rover you will maintain your line work Trimble you will loose you map design, "not good"witch we all know that's a big deal
Not true you can stakeout a flat or sloping plane and keep the design map on the screen. You can also create a sloping plane with different cross slopes left or right. great for swales and parking lots. no model needed. Not to mention catch points on slopes.
12. I love the layer system better than job files when all you have to do is uncheck or check a layer instead of loading different job files. Trimble SCS900 file system is simple. You have an overall "site" that is like the job's filing cabinet. Inside the site you have different "work orders" Work orders keep different aspects of the job separate. Say you go out to a new site on Day 1. you topo the existing site. You would have that in it's own work order. Asbuilts would be a work order, quantities or utilities maybe another. These work orders keep what you have done separated. This way when you want to send the "asbuilt shots" back to the engineer, you are not sending all those original "topo" shots along with it. You send only what you want to send. You can turn layers on and off along with measured points, stakeout points, elevations and descriptions all from the zoom icons along the right hand side.
Topcon only needs one antenna mask because their slope sensors are more advanced Than Trimbles that's why they have to sell you two masks their sensors can't keep up with the cross slope. If for some reason your not matching your slope side than until you figure it out just follow your smart (mask) side over than manually dial your slope to match each pass or just manaully run the slope side to match and there is always the sonar you can use in conjunction with your GPS antenna mask just saying. I've never had trouble selling my grade with Topcon rock or sub grade also try to build 2:1 ditches using two masks good luck. I think you mean to say 1 GPS mast instead of two? Topcon uses 1 mast and a slope sensor to calculate mathematically were the corner of the blades are. Trimble uses a mast on each blade corner. it knows exactly where the blade tips are. Trimble does offer a single mast solution much like Topcon's, it is cheaper than two masts, but a dual mast system is going to be far superior on slopes than a single mast system. If you are grading parallel on a size slope using a single mast system, and your machine's rear starts sliding down the hill. The single mast system does not know if the machine is sliding or if you are angling the blade. This is because there is only 1 point of reference. With two masts, the system knows exactly where the machine is at all times and will grade perfectly on matching passes. Also with a single mast and slope sensor system, try grading at a fast speed and turning the machine left or right. You will see your blade tip dip down as the level vial in your slope sensor swings form the turn. Also Topcon's system of vertical offsets is flawed. The vertical offset is not perpendicular to your surface. This doesn't have much affect on flat areas, but on slopes it does. say you are spreading 6 inches on topsoil on a side slope. 6" vertical to your design slope is NOT the same as 6" perpendicular to the slope.

I hope that helps, when in doubt test them your self at least I gave you some features to compare

You need better training on your Trimble System.

Also, The Trimble GCS900 machine system can be moved from a dozer, to a excavator, to a grader in about 10 minutes. As long as your machines are Trimble ready, you take the control box, pop it out of the dash, 4 10mm bolts on the radio and unlock the GPS receivers of the masts and put it on another machine. You CANNOT do this with a Topcon system.

I don't sell Trimble, bit I have used Topcon and Trimble for over 10 years and Trimble is far superior to Topcon.

 

[brad.kirby]

Ok Harry lets do this one last time
1. Machine controls and rover are more user friendly the learning curve is definitely much shorter
2. Just maybe I don't want to follow any of the design lines or my grid lines need to extend beyond any of the design lines
With just two points I can create grid lines in any direction and any length I want
3. With Topcon I don't have to do any of that Pan,Zoom to keep my cursor in the middle of the screen Trimble your cursor can walk off the screen. Thanks for confirming my point about being user friendly
4. You can't hardly elaborate on this one, you can not edit a point descriptions after you have already logged the point
5. I use the measure topo shot to get a more accurate reading to set a hub or check a survey hub elevation, there is no need to record everything you shoot its called grade setting
6. I have a SPA 855 model with a Zephyr Geodetic model 2 GPS antenna with takes two wires not counting the one that goes to the auxiliary battery when I work more than 12 hrs. With happens a lot when working with the paving crew doing IC rolling. Now let's get to charging base radio, rover batteries witch only last 4 hour and SPS 985 that will be three more cables
7. This one you made my point again about user friendly, Sounds to me like a lot of navigation and work. Trimble keeps a running total of all your shots regardless of the description of the shots unless you build separate work orders for each utility
Topcon separates your number based on the layer your using at the time so you individually know how many water valves or storm man holes you have, Trimbles utilities are all lumped together
8. I've been building jobs with Topcon for 15 years and never had a problem with a file being to big, If you had a big job and you put contours on at .10 intervals you might freeze the screen MAYBE
9. Good model makers use all colors unless you specify different the fact is that if you did have problems for what ever reason you can change the color of your line work with Topcon
10. The guidance method on Trimble blade has three locations
on Topcon you have a slide bar that allows you to put it any where on the blade
11. Now you a just flat out wrong, you can not build a flat plan or slope surface an maintain your line work if so give me and this forum step by step how to do it, if you can than Trimble wants to hire you
12. Layers are no different than work orders just easier to use,
All you have to do is uncheck or check the box of the layer you want on you screen. Pretty simple
13. One more thing since we're on the subject, Trimble points are all little black generic dots you would not know what those dot were unless you filled you screen up with all those descriptions. Topcon has icons little dot, big dot, circles, star, triangle, cross and you have a assortment of colors to choose from so I know what my points are with out the descriptions so I might just add the elevation if needed
I will admit Trimble does have an advantage on the slopes but if you follow your smart side down the slope and match your pass with your slope side you got it made. Topcon can also move their machine controls from one equipment to the other this tell me you do not know nothing about Topcon product like you quoted earlier
Harry you have only used Trimble and if you have ever used Topcon it must of been just a demo session
You know Trimble and Topcon are both great products Topcon is just the superiors one, The best thing about Trimble is their Trimble Business Center I use it to build all my models great product love it