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Studying improving experience for repairing machines

tom_groom

Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2017
Messages
15
Location
Chicago
Hi my name is Tom, new member, I'm a student at University of Illinois Chicago. We are looking at how people repair heavy equipment and finding ways to improve the experience of everyone from technicians and engineers at larger companies to self-employed contractors.

We are specifically looking at:

How people identify a specific problem in a machine.
How a defective part itself is then identified (via serial number of part, finding it in physical manuals, etc).
How that part is ordered.

We have been focusing on Cat machinery, but are open to any machine type.

If any of you have any experiences you’d like to share, it would be incredibly valuable. We'd love to hear about problems you often encounter, experiences or products you feel could be made better (from the ease of identifying faulty parts, through to how complicated manuals are), how you learned, or how you are currently learning. All comments are welcome from people who want to vent frustration, to those who would love to share methods to help others.

Also if any of you would be interested in maybe in the future giving a short amount of time in the future for a interview over the phone, please let me know.

Thanks
 

JD955SC

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2011
Messages
1,349
Location
The South
Well since you are focusing on Cat machines I'll talk about SIS.

SIS is pretty much our one stop shop for shop manuals, operation manuals, service letters, parts diagrams, and so on.

The main bone I have to pick with it is it is laid out and stuff is written very engineerish. Sometimes it takes me some re-readings of instructions to "get it". Sometimes it's hard to find a part that should be easy to find in the manual because they put it in a weird location that probably made sense to them. And finally, it drives me up the damn wall trying to search and find something sometimes because different terms are used for a particular item. I'm continually learning to navigate SIS better but some days it can be very frustrating.
 

repowerguy

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2015
Messages
810
Location
United States southern Ohio
Occupation
mixer truck mechanic
If you want to see how a service manual should be written and laid out, look at a copy of a Cat or AC manual from the 60's. We used to laugh at the white lab coat mechanics standing next to some massive piece suspended by a sky hook. The people that wrote the text made it simple enough for a beginner, but complex and theoretical enough for experienced hands.
John Deere parts books would give you part numbers for bolts nuts and washers and give you the actual size also. This is a huge time and money saver when in the field.
 

Planedriver

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2017
Messages
131
Location
Central Michigan
Occupation
Farmer
Let's see..... Center joint, center pivot, pivot, rotary manifold, center can, hydraulic rotater, I'm sure I have missed a few. Depending on who you are speaking with they could call that thing in the middle of an excavator or crane that allows hydraulic fluid to pass between the pump and tracks any of those names. The same name game applies to a lot more parts also. (Don't even get me started on farm equipment)

Since technocracy has brought us to facial recognition why not apply that to parts lookup? Take a picture of a part, indicate the machine and get a part number with dimensions, diagram and fitment.
 

tom_groom

Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2017
Messages
15
Location
Chicago
Well since you are focusing on Cat machines I'll talk about SIS.

SIS is pretty much our one stop shop for shop manuals, operation manuals, service letters, parts diagrams, and so on.

The main bone I have to pick with it is it is laid out and stuff is written very engineerish. Sometimes it takes me some re-readings of instructions to "get it". Sometimes it's hard to find a part that should be easy to find in the manual because they put it in a weird location that probably made sense to them. And finally, it drives me up the damn wall trying to search and find something sometimes because different terms are used for a particular item. I'm continually learning to navigate SIS better but some days it can be very frustrating.

Yeah—we found this. The design of these manuals seems really poorly done, or at least like you say, much more engineering focused than user focused. What would you think about something digital which you could use on a computer or device which would allow you you to reference a part and could then pull together all pages with that part in it—it might be bad for similar parts like bolts, but if you could refine it using another term perhaps that could give you all the info you needed much quicker. Do you find you need the paper or physical version for reference?
 

tom_groom

Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2017
Messages
15
Location
Chicago
Let's see..... Center joint, center pivot, pivot, rotary manifold, center can, hydraulic rotater, I'm sure I have missed a few. Depending on who you are speaking with they could call that thing in the middle of an excavator or crane that allows hydraulic fluid to pass between the pump and tracks any of those names. The same name game applies to a lot more parts also. (Don't even get me started on farm equipment)

Since technocracy has brought us to facial recognition why not apply that to parts lookup? Take a picture of a part, indicate the machine and get a part number with dimensions, diagram and fitment.

This is totally something we wanted to look at. I have a weird question to ask in this regard—instead of using images (we also wanted to explore a lower tech way of doing this), if I used questions to find the part and only had 20 questions, what could be the most important questions or best way to get to any specific part on a machine?

Would you say it would be best to start with the location of the part (is it in the front/middle/back)... what 20 questions (or less) could define any part on a machine do you think?
 

tom_groom

Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2017
Messages
15
Location
Chicago
If you want to see how a service manual should be written and laid out, look at a copy of a Cat or AC manual from the 60's. We used to laugh at the white lab coat mechanics standing next to some massive piece suspended by a sky hook. The people that wrote the text made it simple enough for a beginner, but complex and theoretical enough for experienced hands.
John Deere parts books would give you part numbers for bolts nuts and washers and give you the actual size also. This is a huge time and money saver when in the field.

That's really interesting—was it the usability for beginners plus its depth that made it so helpful, or the specific details like part numbers and dimensions which helped so much? Do you think the manuals have gotten worse since the 60s? If yes, any idea as to why, or anything you could point out which got worse?
 

Planedriver

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2017
Messages
131
Location
Central Michigan
Occupation
Farmer
This is totally something we wanted to look at. I have a weird question to ask in this regard—instead of using images (we also wanted to explore a lower tech way of doing this), if I used questions to find the part and only had 20 questions, what could be the most important questions or best way to get to any specific part on a machine?

Would you say it would be best to start with the location of the part (is it in the front/middle/back)... what 20 questions (or less) could define any part on a machine do you think?

We already have alpha, sectional, part number and major group/component searches. Any of them would be great if there was any consistency across the board.

Wasn't there an electronic game on the market a few years ago that would correctly identify anything in the world by asking 20 questions or less?
 

thepumpguysc

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2010
Messages
7,445
Location
Sunny South Carolina
Occupation
Master Inj.Pump rebuilder
The main problem "as I see it" is, the new wave/generation of "engineers".. The NOMENCLATURE has changed.. Such as a "cheese head" screw?? The manuals of the 60's called a screw a screw, a bolt a bolt, what size it was, ie: thread, length and head size and told you which way to actually turn it, to tighten or loosen..
They were written in a way a "farmer" w/ limited schooling, could look at a picture and work on & repair the equipment.
The biggest problem back then, was coming up w/ the money to BUY the manual.. but once you had it.. that was ALL you needed..
Look at ANY parts manual or service manual written in the last 10 years and go to the injection pump/fuel system..
All you get is.. MAYBE some half assed instruction on how to pull the injection pump off.. AND THEN..send the system to and authorized shop.. where your at the mercy of the shop and their rates..
The OLDER manuals actually broke the system down and detailed instructions on how to repair/overhaul it.. that's why older manuals from the 60's & 70's are so valuable..
 

Cmark

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2009
Messages
3,176
Location
Australia
Yeah—we found this. The design of these manuals seems really poorly done, or at least like you say, much more engineering focused than user focused. What would you think about something digital which you could use on a computer or device which would allow you you to reference a part and could then pull together all pages with that part in it—it might be bad for similar parts like bolts, but if you could refine it using another term perhaps that could give you all the info you needed much quicker.
This already exists in the form of the Advanced Full Text Search.
Do you find you need the paper or physical version for reference?

When the information first started going digital, I found it incredibly frustrating trying to use a computer for the job. However as time has gone on, computers have got faster and SIS has improved and not having a paper version is hardly a problem any more. One exception is schematics which are ideally viewed full size, but with experience and practise, you get used to it.
 

crane operator

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2009
Messages
8,274
Location
sw missouri
I have some Grove manuals for my TMS 300's and 250's, from the late 70's. They are some of the best manuals ever made (in my opinion).

There is a parts manual, every part on the crane, with part numbers and diagrams, if a repair kit is available for a certain item, it has its own listing (ex. hydraulic cylinder seal kit).

The service manual is even better. They had a complete engine book, transmission book (both with pictures of complete tear down and reassembly) . A full step by step troubleshooting section. The crane portion shows complete tear down of individual components, with pictures of disassembly and reassembly. For example- the winches show a step by step disassembly and reassembly, showing how the parts work and fit, and how to tear it down, and reassemble. The service books would cost quite a bit to make today, but to me they are worth it. I always say you could air drop a old grove, in a third world country, and with a set of books, and a minimal set of tools, fix anything wrong with it. Take your diagnostic machine/ laptop, and throw them out the window.

It was easier for grove also to justify the cost of making the books the first time, because they made the same models for so long. The first tms300's came out in 1972, I think the last ones were early 90's. They didn't have a bunch of engineers, trying to justify their existence on the payroll, by redesigning some portion of the crane every year. The crane was a good model, well designed from the start, and they saw no reason to change for change's sake.

Today's Grove GMK series (all terrain cranes) don't even come with a service manual! Grove can't justify the cost, they say, for so many different models, and I can see it because they are constantly redesigning things. Full power booms, locking pin booms. Cable extend booms. Some have 3 telescope cylinders, some two- some only one. Some single engine, some dual engine. Fixed jib, luffing jib, hydraulic power luffing swing away. Different driveline and axle, and suspension arrangements. All you get with a multi million dollar crane is a parts disc, and you can send your mechanic to their service school. Which only covers the newest models.:rolleyes: What if your mechanic leaves? I know- call the dealer. Except my nearest dealer is 4 hours away. That's great when you've got a load in the air and the crane quits working right, or your dead on the side of the road (with a 100.000lb machine)- I can call in and wait two days for the dealer to show up with his special computer.

You can take your computer program, and computer parts systems and shove them. If my manual from 1977 was on a computer from then, how would I read it today? Try looking up parts on a microfiche machine, I've done it, and it isn't any fun. What are the odds that the computer program from today, will be able to be read in 20 years, even 10? The operating systems become obsolete, then you can't read the manual.

"contact the manufacturer"--- Who knows which manufacturer is going to be around in 5- 10 or 15 years. I've got machines from obsolete company's, if I've got a book manual, I can still see how something comes apart.

I know everyone today wants all their info on their phone or laptop, I have all my equipment listed on my phone with serial #'s for convienence, but I can still read my manual from 1977, even if it was in a different language, I could still look at the pictures.

I like my pictures on my phone and computer, but unless someone makes a hard copy of them, I can't see my kids in 30 years looking at pictures of what dad did, way back when, like I can look at a picture of my grandfathers farm.

So- to end my rant- I prefer a hard copy, paper manual, 3 ring binder, with no computer interface connection, or dealer only servicable/identifiable items. Don't make me have your "special" computer program, or ones that only the dealer can access. You want to make a repair program, don't let a engineer write it , have a mechanic write it. You want to see a real manual- go on ebay- find a tms 300 service/repair manual and parts manual, and drop $100 and buy one. Look through it. Don't reinvent the wheel.
 

old-iron-habit

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2012
Messages
4,233
Location
Moose Lake, MN
Occupation
Retired Cons't. Supt./Hospitals
I have always felt that it should be a requirement to have 20 years field experience as a mechanic before you write service manuals. When when your back hurts and your hands are junk its time to consult for the service manual writers. I don't believe todays manufacturers ask the field for feedback anymore like they did years ago. Even 25 years ago the manufacturer would pay a field visit when we got a new crane, see how you were doing, and ask your opinion. Now they push everything to a poor website with stupid questions with no right answers, only answers they can use to promote themselves. Bring back the experienced personal touch.
 

Junkyard

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2016
Messages
3,621
Location
Claremore, OK
Occupation
Field Mechanic
I like a combination of a tangible book and some computer access. I like the book for the same reasons crane op does. I don't need power, internet etc to find the info I need. I agree with everything said so far. I believe Cat has the best mfr based system for manuals or parts. The parts side becomes more challenging on older machines as many parts have changed numbers multiple times. Some sort of cross reference by part number, description, location etc that you can narrow the search area down. Sometimes the place the part you need isn't even close to logical. The D11N parts book written back in the day is easy to use. SIS version seems counterintuitive for certain parts.

I have also seen a reduction in the sub assembly rebuild instructions. I don't know if it's due to lack of people doing it these days or if it's a cost of producing said instructions. The old manuals literally looked like they built or disassembled a machine while a photographer clicked away. I dig the lab coats ;)

I think some things have gotten so technical it's hard to include all that info in a manual. However, for what a machine costs and a factory service manual costs it should have everything in it. Cat does have the best info value hands down with SIS/ET. Just my humble .02. Haven't said anything new I don't think......

Junkyard
 

Planedriver

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2017
Messages
131
Location
Central Michigan
Occupation
Farmer
They were written in a way a "farmer" w/ limited schooling, could look at a picture and work on & repair the equipment.
I resemble that! LOL..... I think we would all like pages to turn on real paper for the convenience and speed it offers. The computer is great for pricing but I still want the parts guy to pull the part so I don't waste a trip.

Never fear.... Techno babble is stopping production! I farm and clearly understand how weather impacts excavation and AG production. Not as a first choice, but occasionally as an only choice, we are sometimes pressed to get-r-done now because of weather or other factors outside our control. Now, a piece of equipment that cost 10 fold what I paid for my first house sends a signal to mother Deere to shut the process down and I'm dead in the water. I can't do s**t with my ag equipment without a proprietary diagnostic computer (to include replacing hard parts because they have to be identified to the system) and JD owns the technology. Bottom line... Wait for a service tech and walk to the truck and go to the restaurant because you are suspended pending the teenager who is on his way. My favorite, I get a call from a computer scheduling a " critical maintenance" visit because the f**king combine told JD my muffler bearings were loose and I need to shut down ASAP. Best practice: don't ignore the computer because the satellite will shut you down within a few more operating hours if ignored.
 

td25c

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2009
Messages
5,250
Location
indiana
I have some Grove manuals for my TMS 300's and 250's, from the late 70's. They are some of the best manuals ever made (in my opinion).

There is a parts manual, every part on the crane, with part numbers and diagrams, if a repair kit is available for a certain item, it has its own listing (ex. hydraulic cylinder seal kit).

The service manual is even better. They had a complete engine book, transmission book (both with pictures of complete tear down and reassembly) . A full step by step troubleshooting section. The crane portion shows complete tear down of individual components, with pictures of disassembly and reassembly. For example- the winches show a step by step disassembly and reassembly, showing how the parts work and fit, and how to tear it down, and reassemble. The service books would cost quite a bit to make today, but to me they are worth it. I always say you could air drop a old grove, in a third world country, and with a set of books, and a minimal set of tools, fix anything wrong with it. Take your diagnostic machine/ laptop, and throw them out the window.

It was easier for grove also to justify the cost of making the books the first time, because they made the same models for so long. The first tms300's came out in 1972, I think the last ones were early 90's. They didn't have a bunch of engineers, trying to justify their existence on the payroll, by redesigning some portion of the crane every year. The crane was a good model, well designed from the start, and they saw no reason to change for change's sake.

Today's Grove GMK series (all terrain cranes) don't even come with a service manual! Grove can't justify the cost, they say, for so many different models, and I can see it because they are constantly redesigning things. Full power booms, locking pin booms. Cable extend booms. Some have 3 telescope cylinders, some two- some only one. Some single engine, some dual engine. Fixed jib, luffing jib, hydraulic power luffing swing away. Different driveline and axle, and suspension arrangements. All you get with a multi million dollar crane is a parts disc, and you can send your mechanic to their service school. Which only covers the newest models.:rolleyes: What if your mechanic leaves? I know- call the dealer. Except my nearest dealer is 4 hours away. That's great when you've got a load in the air and the crane quits working right, or your dead on the side of the road (with a 100.000lb machine)- I can call in and wait two days for the dealer to show up with his special computer.

You can take your computer program, and computer parts systems and shove them. If my manual from 1977 was on a computer from then, how would I read it today? Try looking up parts on a microfiche machine, I've done it, and it isn't any fun. What are the odds that the computer program from today, will be able to be read in 20 years, even 10? The operating systems become obsolete, then you can't read the manual.

"contact the manufacturer"--- Who knows which manufacturer is going to be around in 5- 10 or 15 years. I've got machines from obsolete company's, if I've got a book manual, I can still see how something comes apart.

I know everyone today wants all their info on their phone or laptop, I have all my equipment listed on my phone with serial #'s for convienence, but I can still read my manual from 1977, even if it was in a different language, I could still look at the pictures.

I like my pictures on my phone and computer, but unless someone makes a hard copy of them, I can't see my kids in 30 years looking at pictures of what dad did, way back when, like I can look at a picture of my grandfathers farm.

So- to end my rant- I prefer a hard copy, paper manual, 3 ring binder, with no computer interface connection, or dealer only servicable/identifiable items. Don't make me have your "special" computer program, or ones that only the dealer can access. You want to make a repair program, don't let a engineer write it , have a mechanic write it. You want to see a real manual- go on ebay- find a tms 300 service/repair manual and parts manual, and drop $100 and buy one. Look through it. Don't reinvent the wheel.
Good points crane op !
I as well like the hard copy " book " on repair & service .
My take on a new piece of equipment sold today without a complete service manual on paper is the companies fear of it being copied by another manufacturer ?

If a customer shells out the cash on a brand new " whatever " why else would it not come with all the books & information on it ?
No idea ? :confused:
 

tom_groom

Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2017
Messages
15
Location
Chicago
When the information first started going digital, I found it incredibly frustrating trying to use a computer for the job. However as time has gone on, computers have got faster and SIS has improved and not having a paper version is hardly a problem any more. One exception is schematics which are ideally viewed full size, but with experience and practise, you get used to it.

I'm just interested in how likely you or others are to have a printer around—if you had something digital which allowed you to print would that help or does that just mean you have to buy a printer and fix that every time it goes down too ;)?
 

Planedriver

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2017
Messages
131
Location
Central Michigan
Occupation
Farmer
Good points crane op !
I as well like the hard copy " book " on repair & service .
My take on a new piece of equipment sold today without a complete service manual on paper is the companies fear of it being copied by another manufacturer ?

If a customer shells out the cash on a brand new " whatever " why else would it not come with all the books & information on it ?
No idea ? :confused:

With all due respect TD. ARE YOU NEW? Deere prevailed in a 2015 suit brought by an owner of their equipment asserting he had full right to the tech required to make his machine operate. NOT. Bottom line: you only own the iron not the right to keep it running without Deere. Check this article:
https://www.wired.com/2015/04/dmca-ownership-john-deere/
 

tom_groom

Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2017
Messages
15
Location
Chicago
I have some Grove manuals for my TMS 300's and 250's, from the late 70's. They are some of the best manuals ever made (in my opinion).

There is a parts manual, every part on the crane, with part numbers and diagrams, if a repair kit is available for a certain item, it has its own listing (ex. hydraulic cylinder seal kit).

The service manual is even better. They had a complete engine book, transmission book (both with pictures of complete tear down and reassembly) . A full step by step troubleshooting section. The crane portion shows complete tear down of individual components, with pictures of disassembly and reassembly. For example- the winches show a step by step disassembly and reassembly, showing how the parts work and fit, and how to tear it down, and reassemble. The service books would cost quite a bit to make today, but to me they are worth it. I always say you could air drop a old grove, in a third world country, and with a set of books, and a minimal set of tools, fix anything wrong with it. Take your diagnostic machine/ laptop, and throw them out the window.

It was easier for grove also to justify the cost of making the books the first time, because they made the same models for so long. The first tms300's came out in 1972, I think the last ones were early 90's. They didn't have a bunch of engineers, trying to justify their existence on the payroll, by redesigning some portion of the crane every year. The crane was a good model, well designed from the start, and they saw no reason to change for change's sake.

Today's Grove GMK series (all terrain cranes) don't even come with a service manual! Grove can't justify the cost, they say, for so many different models, and I can see it because they are constantly redesigning things. Full power booms, locking pin booms. Cable extend booms. Some have 3 telescope cylinders, some two- some only one. Some single engine, some dual engine. Fixed jib, luffing jib, hydraulic power luffing swing away. Different driveline and axle, and suspension arrangements. All you get with a multi million dollar crane is a parts disc, and you can send your mechanic to their service school. Which only covers the newest models.:rolleyes: What if your mechanic leaves? I know- call the dealer. Except my nearest dealer is 4 hours away. That's great when you've got a load in the air and the crane quits working right, or your dead on the side of the road (with a 100.000lb machine)- I can call in and wait two days for the dealer to show up with his special computer.

You can take your computer program, and computer parts systems and shove them. If my manual from 1977 was on a computer from then, how would I read it today? Try looking up parts on a microfiche machine, I've done it, and it isn't any fun. What are the odds that the computer program from today, will be able to be read in 20 years, even 10? The operating systems become obsolete, then you can't read the manual.

"contact the manufacturer"--- Who knows which manufacturer is going to be around in 5- 10 or 15 years. I've got machines from obsolete company's, if I've got a book manual, I can still see how something comes apart.

I know everyone today wants all their info on their phone or laptop, I have all my equipment listed on my phone with serial #'s for convienence, but I can still read my manual from 1977, even if it was in a different language, I could still look at the pictures.

I like my pictures on my phone and computer, but unless someone makes a hard copy of them, I can't see my kids in 30 years looking at pictures of what dad did, way back when, like I can look at a picture of my grandfathers farm.

So- to end my rant- I prefer a hard copy, paper manual, 3 ring binder, with no computer interface connection, or dealer only servicable/identifiable items. Don't make me have your "special" computer program, or ones that only the dealer can access. You want to make a repair program, don't let a engineer write it , have a mechanic write it. You want to see a real manual- go on ebay- find a tms 300 service/repair manual and parts manual, and drop $100 and buy one. Look through it. Don't reinvent the wheel.

Thanks—that is all super helpful! I'd love to find one of those older manuals and measure them against the newer ones. I love the idea of putting the power back in the hands of everyone and decentralizing information and systems which aren't dealer specific or can only be accessed by "the man". This might sound like a stupid question, but could you give me a quick description of the difference between an engineer and a mechanic in your eyes? In terms of trust, do you trust a mechanic more than an engineer?
 

tom_groom

Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2017
Messages
15
Location
Chicago
We already have alpha, sectional, part number and major group/component searches. Any of them would be great if there was any consistency across the board.

Wasn't there an electronic game on the market a few years ago that would correctly identify anything in the world by asking 20 questions or less?

I think there might have been—the approach we wanted to explore was how we could describe any part on the machine in as few a questions as possible. Whether by starting with general location, and drilling down to material or something like that we would be able to identify a bolt here, or a washer there. Sorry to be a complete noob, but would you mind explaining the alpha, sectional and major group/component searches and how they work—is this done by assembly and sub-assembly in a physical manual?
 
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