S 40 crank no start

[Leon74]

Genie S40 crank no start from basket

 

[Leon74]

S

Genie S40 crank no start from basket

Let's start over here. I have a Genie S 40 #S4007-12341 with Duetz F3L2011. It starts and runs great, you can shut off and start from basket for about 1/2hr operation, then after shut off it will crank from basket but not start. Have to switch to ground position to start then flip back to basket to do any more work till you shut off again , then back to start from ground and flip to basket to do any more work. Been studing wiring diagrams for 3-4 days and testing various connections and finding correct voltage where it is suppose to be. The only difference I have found so far is on red button on basket control I have a red wire on one side of switch with 12.6v and white wire on other side of switch with 11.6v with knob pulled out, then those voltages reflected on connections down stream from those wires. Voltage goes up 1-1.5v respectively with machine running. Also have discovered some previous "FIX" by someone running 2 wires direct from fuel rack solenoid on front of engine to Terminal Block (TB) #23 and Ground terminal in ground control box, cut oem wires and left in oem harness. Tested these wires and they had correct voltage when in start and running position of KS. During process of diagnose discovered that sometimes when flipping Key Switch (KS) to Basket Position (BP) after starting from Ground Position (GP) engine would slowly shut off, like key was turned off. Connected Voltmeter (VM) at fuel solenoid wires and a VM at TB23 & Grd to monitor voltage when flipping KS between GP and BP , voltage was staying up to 13.5v till engine died then read 12.5v after engine stopped on both meters. Also noticed that when starting machine then flipping KS between GP&BP, if I would almost let enginge die before completely switching positions of KS, all red leds that were on (#7,9,2) on Ignition/Start Module (IGSM) , went off and engine was still running and had voltage at the before mentioned connections of fuel solenoid and TB23&Grd. This was happening in GP or BP of KS. So I check all terminals of IGSM for voltage and only #6 had 12.5v, but engine was still running. Also no functions would work either on ground or basket controls. During the diagnose of this hair pulling experience I discovered U33 block that directs voltage from KS to ground or basket circuits by terminals #4&5 and #6&7 in U33, #4&5 are for basket control circuits and #6&7 are for ground control circuits. Remember I said everthing works correctly in the beginning from the GP and same way in BP till about .5hr of operation, then it would crank but not start in BP. So I noticed that #4&#6 both come direct from KS, so switched them to #4 feed #7 and #6 feed #5. Which should just make the KS be backward in positions, which it did almost! It would crank from the GP but not start and it started right up from the BP, THEN it wouldn't shut off from BP. Now this is AFTER I had trouble shoot this machine couple weeks ago and determinded that it had to be the IGSM, so I ordered a new one and installed it and tested it for 30-45minutes all is well. So I proceded to use it this past week and low and behold the old orginial problem reared it's ugly head and took a $350 bite out of my Butt plus all labor and time of diagnosing this problem. So you techs out there that are up to the challenge tackle this one for me . Thank You for your help .

 

[willie59]

Way lot of information to process, which is good, most folks don't give near enough info to assist them. But allow me to condense down to one bit of info mentioned above,

"Also noticed that when starting machine then flipping KS between GP&BP, if I would almost let enginge die before completely switching positions of KS, all red leds that were on (#7,9,2) on Ignition/Start Module (IGSM) , went off and engine was still running".

That's what I question, LED 7, 9, and 2, went off but engine was still running? Assuming I'm looking at the correct diagram, #102521, if 7, 9, and 2 of ignition/start module go dark then that engine should die. Am I reading this right?

 

[Leon74]

Genie S40 crank no start from basket

Way lot of information to process, which is good, most folks don't give near enough info to assist them. But allow me to condense down to one bit of info mentioned above,

"Also noticed that when starting machine then flipping KS between GP&BP, if I would almost let enginge die before completely switching positions of KS, all red leds that were on (#7,9,2) on Ignition/Start Module (IGSM) , went off and engine was still running".

That's what I question, LED 7, 9, and 2, went off but engine was still running? Assuming I'm looking at the correct diagram, #102521, if 7, 9, and 2 of ignition/start module go dark then that engine should die. Am I reading this right?

Yeah, That is what I thought too, so I check for voltage at fuel solenoid and had 13v at solenoid ,so i took wire off alternator to make sure it wasn't back feeding and rechecked IGSM for voltage at any terminals, only 12.5v Bat on #6 which has no lite for it.

 

[Leon74]

Remember I said someone had "FIX" it before by running 2 wires from Fuel Solenoid to TB23 and Controlbox Grd. This is only "extra" wiring I have found on machine.

 

[willie59]

And that's what concerns me, the old shade tree spaghetti wire mechanic. If that's what you have there's little anyone can do to help because we have to work with proper wiring. I'm just saying, to keep it as simple as possible, you turn on ignition, whether from platform or base, which puts power to to 7 key power on module. Then you hit start, which is and input to 3, module says, "ok, we need to start", so module powers up output on 9 ign/fuel on. Engine is cranking and it starts/runs. Once running the module want's to see a tach input from the alternator on 2, if it doesn't see that input the engine will die. That's the basic of what that start/run module is supposed to do.

 

[Leon74]

And that's what concerns me, the old shade tree spaghetti wire mechanic. If that's what you have there's little anyone can do to help because we have to work with proper wiring. I'm just saying, to keep it as simple as possible, you turn on ignition, whether from platform or base, which puts power to to 7 key power on module. Then you hit start, which is and input to 3, module says, "ok, we need to start", so module powers up output on 9 ign/fuel on. Engine is cranking and it starts/runs. Once running the module want's to see a tach input from the alternator on 2, if it doesn't see that input the engine will die. That's the basic of what that start/run module is supposed to do.

That is exactly what my thinking is to, How is it even possible to be running with no power to solenoid from #9 on IGSM , but that also explains why no functions would work in BP or GP because of no power to IGN circuit. The only way the solenoid can be getting power is where the "FIX" wire is plugged in to TB23 , rather that being being powered up by CR2, which is turned on by wire from #9 from IGSM , but according to Schematic#102521 . Power goes thru KS in GP to #6 on U33 which feeds power out #7 to start Toggle switch, Glowplug switch, and Function enable switch in ground control box. Power also T's off before U33 and goes to pump aux switch and also thru a diode too before connecting to TB23, power is then sent to #7 "KOpower" on IGSM then thru LED to #10"Eng Fault" on IGSM There is also a wire from TB23 that goes to EMG Stop . I think I will be doing some more testing in the morning. Thanks for your help so far, Do you know where that diode is located between KS and TB23 connection. I think it is the one that is right on the KS terminal.